Varnish refresher coat

ucgeissler · Post by **ucgeissler** » Sat May 07, 2011 9:42 am

Previouly used Interlux Schooner which is now replaced
with the higher viscosity Schooner gold. Results were disappointing in that I had "runs" and heavy brush marks. I followed up with brushing liquid dilution withno better results. Any suggestions?

Bill Basler · Post by **Bill Basler** » Sat May 07, 2011 10:16 am

You're not the first to wrestle with this unfortunately. Some believe the new product is this way because of all of the toxic high VOC stuff they had to remove to meet new regulations. According to Interlux, the new product is new and improved. In reality, most everyone has a difficult time with the Gold.

Most things that I have read in the past couple of years seem to indicate there is a magic temperature...not too hot...not too cold...and a perfect thinner amount.

I know this is vague but it seems most find the right amount of thinner given the temperature and humidity they're dealing with.

In several years of reading about this product I have not read a single post where the user says, "I am ecstatic with the results." At best people say "the new coat was better than the previous,"

Here is another post I found, one of dozens out there:

I'd used regular Interlux Schooner varnish in the past, but switched to Schooner Gold after the regular stuff was apparently discontinued. I neglected to notice this from the Interlux site:

"Schooner Gold is different. It's not a regular varnish and it's not like Schooner. Developed to apply and perform like a professional varnish, Schooner Gold has a VERY high viscosity, giving it a very thick appearance in the can."

Indeed. After using Schooner Gold without any thinner, I will definitely need to apply at least one more coat. I fought with it for three hours. It goes on thick and does not self-level like regular Schooner. My foam brushes skittered across it when I was tipping. I've got sags. And I used a lot. There was no other way.

Brian Robinson · Post by **Brian Robinson** » Sat May 07, 2011 10:41 am

As of a few months ago, the regular Schooner 96 is back in production on the market. They had a product called Compass, which I think was meant to replace Schooner, but has been recalled and Schooner has been made available again by popular demand.

We may test the Gold for build coats (thinned 15%) as it seems like it may be well suited for this. You never know until you try.

Nowadays, it seems like any quality varnish needs to be thinned at least some for the final. I think the VOC regulations removed most of the thinners to make it flow like it used too (especially Epiphanes) so we have to put the thinners back in ourselves.

ucgeissler · Post by **ucgeissler** » Sat May 07, 2011 10:49 am

Bill, Brian
Thanks fro your quick response. What thinner do you recommend? Brushing liquid 333 did not work.
Has anyone any better experience with Pettit Captain's
varnish?

Captain Nemo · Post by **Captain Nemo** » Sat May 07, 2011 10:22 pm

I went through a couple of quarts of the Captain's on a project last spring and I am pleased w/ the results. I never used the schooner so I can't really compare it.
I used to use Mclosky's Man-O-War until they went to the VOC compliant formula

. I found the Captain's to work just as well as the original Man-O-War.
-Mark

Brian Robinson · Post by **Brian Robinson** » Sat May 07, 2011 10:48 pm

Captains is a quality product that is easy to use (very forgiving) and dries quickly. I would highly recommend it to novice varnishers.

My gripe with it is that it is relatively thin. Some guys pile on 20 coats of Captains, then final with one coat of Epiphanes or Schooner to get an awesome finish when the boat is done and first shown.

The problem is, over the next year the varnish has cured, and sucked in to the grain immensely, and needs to be recoated. This happens with any varnish, especially when many coats are applied, start to finish, in a couple weeks time. Captains just seems to be the most noticeable with this. Most say "how could 20 coats of varnish suck into the grain like that"... well, it just does - especially over new wood.

Riva, for example, spent several months varnishing each boat, allowing long cure times between each coat. This makes for a longer lasting finish with less shrinkage.

Sometimes time is scarce, and you have to rush the varnish process. Just plan on re-coating after a year.

All of this hassle is just part of varnish's charm, right?

yzer · Post by **yzer** » Mon May 09, 2011 1:15 am

I used Pettit BAK-V-SPAR for at least eleven years before the product was discontinued and my small stock of sealed cans ran out. I was used to this product and liked it. BAK-V-SPAR never changed qualities as long as I used it. This was a traditional oil-based phenolic resin spar varnish that featured Pettit's best UV package.

On advise from a Pettit customer service representative I switched to another Pettit varnish: Z-Spar Flagship. He said this was the only other Pettit varnish with same UV package as BAK-V-SPAR.

I had some trouble as I began the first coat of Flagship. The varnish was more viscous than I was accustomed to so had I had to thin a little more than I did with BAK-V-SPAR. Pettit recommends their 120 Brushing Thinner for both products.

I'm accustomed to using the Pettit brushing thinner. It works for me. Show me ten wooden boaters and I'll show you ten ways to varnish and thin varnish including turpentine, japan dryer, mineral spirits, and Penetrol.

With new VOC regulations all of the marine varnishes are thicker than they used to be and require more thinning. The good news is the varnish goes farther with thinning, the bad news is it costs more.

Pettit BAK-V-SPAR v. Flagship varnish? Both brush well and have excellent self-leveling properties. Flagship has a higher and longer-lasting gloss but it is more easily etched by bird droppings than BAK-V-SPAR.

steve bunda · Post by **steve bunda** » Mon May 09, 2011 8:15 am

Epifanes is my favorate choice for varnishing wood boats. I agree with many of the points allready brought up, flagship is thin, drying time between varnish coats is importaint. Put on 4 or 5 coats and wait a couple of weeks for the varnish to degas. Then put on 4 or 5 more coats and wait again , afterward you may go for finish coats. Seasoning over a long period is even better. I donot thin the varnish after the first few coats, I prefer to heat it up a little and have a heat lamp under the varnish tray to keep it warm. Picture is a boat that came in for maintance coats , went well , still have too paint seams.

ucgeissler · Post by **ucgeissler** » Mon May 09, 2011 12:46 pm

Tanks everyone for your advice. i will now be a more sucessful varnisher. I talked to Interlux tech services this morning and they were surprised at my
"bad" experience with their "new & improved" Schooner Gold. They did, however, suggest that thism product needs to be diluted by 20-25% with their brushing liquid 333. They also assured me that this high dilution would not impact the durability of the finish.
Rick

Mark Campbell · Post by **Mark Campbell** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 6:04 pm

I use Epifanes. I seem to have outstanding results with a method unconventional to most, but thats ok...it works with a show result for me.

The following is just a brief brief explanation of what was passed on to me as an apprentice and years and years of success.

Foam roller pulled up skipping a width , puling gaps and blending (hard to explain something that has been taught hands on) this ensures even depth.

Followed with a pulling from a foam brush (brush MUST be wetted with varnish first/excess removed to avoid absorbing applied layer)

Get on it... Get off it.

Although brief the above is a proven method. It works so well because the Foam roller applies volume evenly and very quickly with no lines. Bubbles are pulled out with the Foam Brush and the process is left alone while the product is still so fresh and wet giving it time to blend on itself flat.

This is my first post as a new member. I am a hobby restorer of my own collection now. I worked as a hobby apprentice for years on others boats, I suppose some of you here may have some of my work and not know it. Hopelessly detail oriented as an anal perfectionist at times. I have not found a posting area to chat about general ownership of runabouts but for now will just lurk and see what personalities roam here. I prefer to be anonymous for now but my teacher was a very respected restorer to many and I feel thankful that I fell for one boat that led to another...you know the story

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Mon Jun 27, 2011 11:44 pm

Welcome to Boat Buzz, BenAbout. Good to have you with us.

The varnish application method that you described is interesting. The idea must be to avoid having too much varnish spread on in the first pass with the loaded foam roller by skipping, then blending what has been applied to fill the skipped areas with thin, even coats. Follow this with a wetted foam brush to pick up bubbles and further even the thin layer. How close am I???

I've tried the roll and tip method and have always given up, grabbing the regular brush and trying to fix the mess that I created. I'm thinking that even using the thinnest foam roller is applying way too much varnish, especially on vertical surfaces. This may lead me to try the method again and see if I can get a handle on it.

I have a ton of varnishing to do on the cruiser if the river will allow me to. It is still over the parking lot (a repeat of last summer).

Al

Mark Campbell · Post by **Mark Campbell** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:02 am

Hello Al,

You have the general concept so let me give some more of the detail. This method is for the 17 to 20 ish runnabout

1:Load (fine roller) with thinned Varnish (15% or 10% thinner...what works for you for the size of the job)

2: I start at the bow/side/waterline and pull up (roll up) to the rail 1 / skip/ pull 2 /skip/ pull 3.

3. After the third roll to the rail I go back to first space (there are two spaces) and start rolling up and down with 45 degree left blending with 45 degree right blending using material from the first applied rolls on each side. In doing so I have averaged the first application with the empty spots to an even thinner coat (important to me because this reduces or eliminates any sagging from rushing the coats ) It is ok to go back and pull out the bubbles (pulling up from the bottom) if the brush is neutral loaded it will flow fast (if the brush buzzes , it is too dry) pulling with the brush between rolling is probably not necessary if the varnish is not thinned.

4. next , I roll about a half roller or less from where we just came from and repeat.

I should note that for a refresh the coat may be thinned or not. An advantage to not thinning is that the work time is greatly extended however much more attention and understanding that a thinner application (thickness applied...not chemical thinning) will give you better success.

restate: final coat for me anyway, is non thinned varnish . So i remain aware that the application is about making the surface wet. by keeping this in mind you might learn that the loaded roller has too much varnish...so you might find that touching the roller every foot from left to right (let say we are on the Port side ) with a little quick pull up spaces mid way from top to bottom... loading an area of stripes for maybe 6 lines (from bow to almost halfway back) , Now go back and don't worry about dripping in this process THAT IS THE BEAUTY of the roller. It blends the high and low spots/blotches during the "get the varnish on first" stage.

To some it up , a side of a runabout might take 4-5 minutes at the most. (pulling up with the foam brush ads time) The time is ALL about the prep and the application is what "Brags" on your hard work. Understanding "keep it simple" is what will determine your success. The un diluted pure varnish gives you LOTS of time...the sooner it is worked and brush pulled up (for bubble) the sooner it remains wet to flatten. Do not be tempted to go back after you are off it...bubbles left will pop and go flat. I have however touched a few with a pin because I am anal .

This method works awesome. I recognize that this would not be excepted by a person that MUST use a Husgarian beaver brush from the north side of a mountain valley

But I also know that it would be discarded before ever tried by a purest. believing is seeing and my posting the above is based on knowing it just needs to get wet and thin (assuring that a sag will less likely happen) coating from staining take time / coating/ curing/ prepping/ coating /curing and so on . A refresh can be simple and relatively quick . remember to prep before coat...clean the surface...no sweaty hands

Mark Campbell · Post by **Mark Campbell** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:05 am

Pulling the foam brush constantly takes away varnish into the foam. Occasional pre loading and keeping the brush wet from supply (removing excess ) is part of the bubble pulling. I am always amazed
at the result of the foam method.

Mark Campbell · Post by **Mark Campbell** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:20 am

I am getting a boat out of storage soon. 1946 Deluxe , early style. (reason for joining here) and will photo document and post this process.

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 9:24 am

When using any method I guess the biggest problem is keeping a "wet edge" to work from, impossible when using a bristle brush to do a large vertical area such as the topsides on a 17' runabout (or transom on a cruiser). I end up with trying to get one area done, then doing the adjacent area that has already begun to get tacky. The results is not too desirable with either thick overlaps or rough areas from pulling wet over tacky varnish (frustrating). Your method seems to emphasize the "get her done" philosophy. I'm thinking it will take much trial & error to do correctly. Wow, an entire side in 5 minutes seems impossible to me.

I'm anxious to see your '46 Deluxe and learn more about the boat. We found several kinds of wood were used on my late '48 model but the topsides and decks were Ph. Mahogany. The ceiling boards (not paneling) appear to be cedar though. The outer bottom planks may have been fir (don't remember).

Al

Mark Campbell · Post by **Mark Campbell** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:25 pm

I roll the side then pull. I know 5 minutes seems fast (that would be the rolling part)

I have done it a few times (tongue and cheek) and when the worry is all gone the process is a pretty good pace...the pulling up with the foam brush ads some more time but things are still flowing. We all get to know when the corner of time turns and things set a bit sticky hands off and watch dry are all you can do. The next time you try this on a transom with the roller I am almost sure you will think..."well i'll be darned..." Always remember to apply thinner than thicker.

currently having a 42 special 16 and a 33 split in the garage I have somewhat of no working space. The 42 and 33 are not stained yet The 46 is done done and ready for new tank install with the rebuilt KBL (thinking about making it a KLC for ease of tuning) after. She is stained and has 4 coats of thinned varnish and will need about that many more before I work on the combing and interior and gauge installs.

Note: I recovered from Colon Cancer last year and having a 3 and 5 year old my priorities changed for a few years. I am an hourly worker and a regular guy ...I just know that reading can be somewhat misleading. My interest started with a 15ft Cavalier I bought from my great aunt back in 1985. Learning to ski behind it in the mid 60"s was just nostalgic enough for me to have the forethought to keep it in the family. I became an apprentice to learn how to restore my own by donating my time to acquire knowledge. Well, as time and years went on I kept picking up a boat here and there as my form of a 401K to have a hobby to share with my children (this was years before my kids with some forethought).
That 15 foot is restored now and I gave it to my twin brother to take care of in Michigan where the boat came from in the 50's. Now I have "some" time and that I think I can get back to slowly step by step use the knowledge I learned to work on my own. I know nothing about reading or videos sources, just memories days off working on Chris Craft engine,tranny, carb , interior and bottom work. So please, any one reading this know I am not pretentious. I am a happy father that has a second chance at life and just LOVES wooden boat smell and sounds. My parents had a CC cruiser based out of South Haven years ago. I miss the big ones too.

Forgive my babbling.

Pete DeVito · Post by **Pete DeVito** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 5:00 pm

Very Very Interesting of the different ways to apply the varnish.
I have read lots of articles but when you get the brush in the hand it seems harder than the book or the articles you read. It would be great someday if this was actually put on a video so we could see the roller method and the brush method.
Maybe there is a video out there already.

steve bunda · Post by **steve bunda** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:24 pm

I would also like to welcome Ben to the club! Ben is right on with the roll and tip method. The sides are easy, topsides a little more tricky. A video would be nice , but nothing like hands on.steve

Mark Campbell · Post by **Mark Campbell** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:30 pm

Thank You for the welcome,

Mark Campbell · Post by **Mark Campbell** » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:43 pm

Thank you for your Welcomes.

My name is Mark

Thank you Steve, Ben is my twin brothers son I tribute this runabout too.