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Barrelback dashboard stain

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Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by bjornbakken » Tue Mar 01, 2016 7:31 pm

Working on staining interior parts on my Barrelback project, and wonder what the consensus is on whenever the dash is Walnut or CC red stain.

Thanks!

Bjorn B.
1940 17' Chris Craft Deluxe
1958 Riva Florida No. 319
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Greg Wallace » Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:29 am

Bjorn,
I am surprised you have not received a definitive reply by now. I am reasonably certain that your dash board stain should match the hull and deck. I have seen walnut between the stainless strips but I don't believe that is correct even though it is attractive. Although I cannot provide direction I believe this topic has been discussed here more than once so perhaps a search will lead you to more info.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by maritimeclassics » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:04 am

It looks all walnut to me. Here is hull number 71675 and is an untouched barn find so this is the factory finish.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Greg Wallace » Fri Mar 04, 2016 9:26 am

I humbly defer to and appreciate the definative evidence.

I was certain my initial and "qualified" response would, if incorrect, prompt a rapid rebuttal and get Bjorn the info he was looking for.

Great Pic !
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Greg Wallace » Fri Mar 04, 2016 11:25 am

maritimeclassics,

Would you be willing to share some more of your knowledge and experience on this subject?

I was aware of a change in 41 to walnut and satin varnish on some models (specifically on the 23 and 27's that had Birdseye in 1940).

Did this change affect the 17 and/or 19s?

Were the 1940 17 and 19 models already walnut to start with?

Despite the 1940 blue instruments and pigskin, the hull number of your barn find 17, "71675" suggests it is a 41 model.

I was always under the impression (likely false) that the 17 and 19 models did not go to walnut(stain) until 1941 model year.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Vogt » Fri Mar 04, 2016 6:20 pm

I believe all the barrelback '17 footers had a mahogany wood dash. this dash style was actually started in part around Jan. 39 when the last of the '39 model year boats were switched from the clum switch to individual switches and a separate key. I do not believe any were stained dark walnut but were stained like the hull, but open to being corrected if this is wrong. the picture doesnt look like walnut stain to me. when i think of walnut stain i think of the covering boards.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by maritimeclassics » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:17 am

Greg Wallace wrote:maritimeclassics,

Would you be willing to share some more of your knowledge and experience on this subject?

I was aware of a change in 41 to walnut and satin varnish on some models (specifically on the 23 and 27's that had Birdseye in 1940).

Did this change affect the 17 and/or 19s?

Were the 1940 17 and 19 models already walnut to start with?

Despite the 1940 blue instruments and pigskin, the hull number of your barn find 17, "71675" suggests it is a 41 model.

I was always under the impression (likely false) that the 17 and 19 models did not go to walnut(stain) until 1941 model year.

Yes, just let me know what you need and I give it a shot.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by bjornbakken » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:11 pm

Thanks everyone for inputs, and the PM's. Seems like the consensus among those the pro's and researchers is walnut stain. Right or wrong, that's what I'll go with.

Bjorn B.
1940 17' Chris Craft Deluxe
1958 Riva Florida No. 319
1955 Riva Ariston

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Vogt » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:24 pm

no i dont think that is the consensus for 1940 at least. If you check out pre war dash and instrumental panel topic under research related, thereis a picture of a 1940 17' deluxe barrelback dash board that al schinnerer sent me. as you can see it is not stained dark walnut as far as i can tell. I dont know about the 1941's but do not think the 40's had a dark stain.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by bjornbakken » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:17 pm

Don, you are right. Consensus may been a poor word choice. It is however the opinion of the people who are to judge my work later, that walnut was used. Again, right or wrong, I can't call.

These are a couple of pictures of the back side of my old dash. You can see the red on top and a darker walnut at the bottom. You can also see the varnish drips that cover that line. The front has been painted over, so can't really see. I interpret this as that walnut was used. My hull number is 71648, May 1940.

Bjorn B.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Vogt » Tue Mar 08, 2016 3:43 pm

thx bjorn.

The only question is whether one can "prove" that the dash wasnt stained dark walnut at some point after being purchased. who knows?

Did you see the schinnerer picture? that is mainly what i was going on. Maybe brian robinson can opine here. I think he went pretty well thru the cc archives at mariner's museum. Usually there would be a shop memo or something directing what was to be done. that would of course be definitive.

Not specifically addressing this issue, but one of the problems in judging over the years is that certain things become "common knowledge" in judging and in the wider boat owner world. Often. however, it is later proven not to be correct. But as a practical matter, if the judges of your show say it was stained, one can understand why you would not want to argue.

why not post some pictures of your boat? love to see it.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Danenberg » Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:44 pm

Most of the photos you have seen involve Oxidation of the 70-year-old varnish.
I have many photos, over 4-decades of barrelback restoration.

Removal of all of the gauges and switches did Not happen, all that often, when topsides or decks were re-finished.

If someone offers Proof of Walnut-stained Dashboards, ask to SEE that Proof!

The rumor of "Walnut-stained" or "Two-Tone" dashboards began around 2006; There is a 23-ft barrelback that shows this custom alteration on the hull-card.

Show us it does have merit?

Show us your "PROOF" ?

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Vogt » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:32 am

Bjorn, I just re-read the boat buzz thread "pre-war dash and panel gauge discussion in research related". In it, don ayers states that the 19 foot barrelback had a dark walnut stained dash during its entire production run from 1940-1942. I think he is the recognized expert on the barrel back. This does not, however, answer the question as to the 17 foot barrelback.

I should also state he says that merely placing the dark stripe between the metal inserts we sometimes see is not correct for those boats.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by maritimeclassics » Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:10 am

This feels like old times on the Buzz :lol: I can't be 100% sure that your dash is walnut stained or not but it may have been possible. I have seen it in the past on boats done that way and Don is right who really knows if it was redone years ago or not. We know of untouched barrel backs and they have been toughly looked at and documented by professionals in the business, I would bet that they would not say 100% whether it was standard practice on every boat every year to be the exact same when it came to one piece of the boat. All we have to go on is how most were done and the proof we have is not enough to say for positive. I have 2 1941 19' Chris Craft Customs in the shop right now and they are 12 hull away from each other. One has mahogany stained ceiling boards and the other walnut. One has a walnut dash the other doesn't and I'm not positive yet whether the walnut is correct but its a very original boat.
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1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by bjornbakken » Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:36 pm

Ohh boy... Bringing some fire and fury back.. :D

Bjorn B.
1940 17' Chris Craft Deluxe
1958 Riva Florida No. 319
1955 Riva Ariston

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Ayers » Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:03 pm

I have all the proof you want. the answer is all walnut stain. Now that I'm no longer on the board I am free to express.

this subject has been covered many times. It has been seen many times on original dash panels that a walnut overstain was applied to the dash rather haphazardly to boot.

I could sit here for an hour pulling pics but I'm not going to do it.

Don D. I've seen video of you publicly defaming my research and you sir are not worth responding to.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Vogt » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:08 am

Thanks, Don that settles that. Can you confirm that this applies to the 17' barrel backs, too?
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Greg Wallace » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:21 am

While we're waiting for Mr. A's response would anyone (with large ones) like to introduce a discussion on engine paint and stain color (pre-war vs post-war)???
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by maritimeclassics » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:10 am

IMG_20160225_180445113.jpg
Don, seeing we have to 19' customs here in the shop I broke out the video the other day you made with Jim and Dan some years ago. We just finished this boat and another that is getting a new bottom and engine. Thank you for taking the time to document that boat it helps to compare with what comes through the shop.
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Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Vogt » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:11 am

Greg, this is very well discussed in a brass bell article that don and maybe brian? wrote about 5 years ago. there are 3 colors, the darkest blue is pre-war, the somewhat lighter is post war, and the small block chevy is the lightest blue. They are also discussed here in the boat buzz, and there was a recent bit about current suppliers. I think it is easily found thru the search function.

As for pre war red mahogany stain, Dave Lobb at NW Classic boats has that for sale. Maybe the dark walnut, too, not sure. Dont know if the red stain changed after the war? But I think so.
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by maritimeclassics » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:12 am

1941 19' Chris Craft Custom with a walnut dash.
IMG_20160225_180431488.jpg
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Ph# 231-486-6148

Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Vogt » Thu Mar 10, 2016 9:13 am

really looks sharp, Mike
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Greg Wallace » Thu Mar 10, 2016 10:47 am

Don Vogt wrote:Greg, this is very well discussed in a brass bell article that don and maybe brian? wrote about 5 years ago. there are 3 colors, the darkest blue is pre-war, the somewhat lighter is post war, and the small block chevy is the lightest blue. They are also discussed here in the boat buzz, and there was a recent bit about current suppliers. I think it is easily found thru the search function.

As for pre war red mahogany stain, Dave Lobb at NW Classic boats has that for sale. Maybe the dark walnut, too, not sure. Dont know if the red stain changed after the war?
Don, Thanks for your response but I was trying to interject a little humor into this discussion that has resulted in some "heat".

I love this as long as no one takes it personal. I think that out of opposing opinion and even conflicting "evidence" is where we have the best chance of getting to the truth or at least one that will seem so until better more conclusive evidence emerges.

I find the whole process fascinating including having strongly held personal "conclusions" proven invalid. All part of the fun.

I still have original Chris Craft supplied stain in my inventory held back for personal projects so I'm good to go in that department, thank you.

As far as engine color is concerned, I have yet to review the evidence to support the darker "pre-war" blue. I'm not saying it is not correct, however, the forensics I have accumulated have provided more questions than answers at this point.
Greg Wallace 23 Custom 22166 former Chris-Craft dealer Russells Point, Oh.

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Vogt » Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:14 am

Ok Greg. Do read the engine paint article. It was pretty thoroughly researched and I believe it included a number of the prominent restorers as part of the effort.

Unfortunately, there are some , it seems, no names mentioned, who are abusive to those who disagree with them. I hope we can avoid that again. Doesn't do anything to advance the hobby.

I do have the recollection that the post war cc stain is different, so you may want to explore that further.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Greg Wallace » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:41 pm

Don, I agree completely. Debate makes it fun and draws out the info we crave. This is supposed to be fun. This is a boat club not a fight club.

I will re-read the paint article but don't recall being "satisfied" beyond hoping the pre-war color was correct because I really like the darker blue. I have some pre-war examples that do not support the dark blue but suggest the color is closer to "post war" blue. I am by no means prepared to "throw down" on this point but remain curious enough to hold off on painting my 1940 MS until I'm ready for the final install. Is there more than one article in case I missed??

I too have heard opinions that Pre-war Chris craft stain was different (more brown) than post war. The only thing I have to offer up is that I have a really nice dash out of a 1939 cruiser (interior) that is scary close in color to parts stained up with Stain sold by Chris Craft post war. My gut tells me there were likely inconsistencies but not enough to slice peas over.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by mbigpops » Thu Mar 10, 2016 12:46 pm

Bjorn,

Just finish that old boat so I can kick your @$$ on Lake Q with my Rocket !

I don't care what color your dash is as all I will see is your bow behind me.

Hope you like my transom.

Mark
1953 CC Rocket Runabout "Rocket Man"

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by joanroy » Thu Mar 10, 2016 1:29 pm

I just painted a 1948 W with POR Chrysler Blue engine enamel. Sometimes it looks light and sometimes it looks dark. Everybody should standardize and go with it. It a great product and will last a hell of a lot longer than the rattle can stuff.

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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by Don Vogt » Thu Mar 10, 2016 6:40 pm

greg, there is just the one article in the brass bell on motor paint, but i recall several different discussions in the boat buzz. one fairly recently.
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Re: Barrelback dashboard stain

Post by bjornbakken » Thu Mar 10, 2016 7:41 pm

Bring it ON Mark!! :D PS: watch that oil pressure..

Bjorn B.
1940 17' Chris Craft Deluxe
1958 Riva Florida No. 319
1955 Riva Ariston

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