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Engine clarification 327F

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jahearne
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Engine clarification 327F

Post by jahearne » Wed Dec 23, 2009 1:44 pm

Does anyone know if the single engine on '65 18' Super Sport suppose to be opposite rotation?

Is an opposite rotation the same as a right hand rotation?

327F flywheel aft, the cracked block that came with the boat has gear driven cam that makes it an opposite rotating motor. The firing order on the intake manifold is 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2 that list as a left hand rotating motor according to the manual for our twin 283F Connie. So it's probably the wrong intake, which shouldn't make a difference. The prop is a Chris-Craft Super Cup 3188RH = right hand prop.

I'm ninetynine percent sure that it's suppose to be a right-hand opposite rotation motor, I just wanted to double check because at times I don't trust my dyslexic head.

Thanks,
John
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drrot
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Post by drrot » Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:01 pm

I guess it depends on if you mean Opposite as to automotive rotation OR Opposite as to STD marine.
2 Gear drive on the cam is Opposite of automotive.
RH prop is STD marine.
Of course if it were flywheel forward with 2 cam gears it would be Opposite Automotive AND marine

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Post by jahearne » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:29 pm

that's where my confusion is coming from. I'm comparing standard marine to a car because these engines are flywheel aft like a car. I'm just going to eliminate "opposite rotation" from my marine vocabulary cause it's tweaking my head.

So a right hand or clockwise rotation as viewed aft is a standard rotation marine.

327F - clockwise RH 1-2-7-5-6-3-4-8
327FL - counterclockwise LH 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2

Based on part numbers for example:
16.11-0045 Camshaft Timing Chain 283FL, 327FL
16.11-0044 Crankshaft Sprocket 283FL, 327FL LH Rot.
16.11-0028 Crankshaft Gear 283F, 327F RH Rot.

My engine has a crankshaft gear and not a sprocket and chain; therefore, it is a 327F RH rotation.

Thanks for the info,
John
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evansjw44
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327 Flywheel Aft

Post by evansjw44 » Wed Dec 23, 2009 8:43 pm

Actually, a flywheel aft Small Block Cheyy (327 or 283) has to have the reverse cam gear drive to make it a standard rotation marine engine. Very confusing but that's the way is is. A standard rotation 283 or 327 or 350 would have to be flyweel afte to use the factory chain drive cam.
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Post by Wood Commander » Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:14 pm

I agree with Jim, the "opposite" engine seems to mean the Port engine (on a twin screw boat) turning a left handed prop. This was how the Hercules flatheads and the early 283's were designated.

On later boats with "Q" engines, the Q would be the Starboard engine turning a right hand prop and the QL would be the Port engine turning a left hand prop.
An "F" and an "FL" would perform in the same way, F Starboard- right hand prop and FL Port- left hand prop. The "F" (Starboard engine- right hand prop) has to be rotated backwards compared to the car engine in order to do this. The "Q" does not, because it is turned around backwards in the boat, as compared to a car engine.

OK, if you aren't confused yet, think about my 1970 23' Lancer with a 307 QLV. It turns the prop on my Volvo outdrive to the right! Just as a "Q" would normally do on the Starboard side of a twin screw boat or in a single screw hull, turning the prop to the right in either case.

But when you think about it, Chris Craft installed both "F"'s and "Q"(LV)'s in Lancers, usually with Volvo outdrives in the "Transdrive" (inboard/outboard) examples (this is where the "V" comes into play), without rhyme or reason.
Volvo outdrives can be set up for an engine crankshaft turning in either direction and will turn the prop whichever way you need them to. So, a Volvo outdrive setup to accept a left- turning crank will accept either an F engine or a QL engine and turn the prop to the right, if it is setup that way.

So it seems that Chris Craft was able to use this to their advantage, almost like they wanted to get rid of some QL engines. There is no reason to put a Q in a Lancer. The engine sits flat in this boat, and an F does the same job at less cost (the Q's in Lancers with the Volvo "Transdrive" did not come with closed cooling, an option that was one of the Q's biggest advantages over the F models, but they still had a very complicated cooling system and plumbing arrangement).
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

jahearne
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Post by jahearne » Fri Dec 25, 2009 6:53 pm

Thanks for additional clarification... i think. No, I got it! Still it's best if I leave "standard" and "opposite" out of the equation and deal in LH and RH direction of the prop viewed aft, counterclockwise and clockwise respectively.

Unfortunately, with the gear driven cam it limits my choice to the more expensive setup in a single engine runabout. Of course a gear driven cam keeps timing better than a chain, but our engines never see more than 5000 rpm. The choices for camshafts using a timing chain are greater than one driven by two gears.

At first I thought since the cams turn the same direction, can I use the same cams? nope, different firing order. Does it matter which way the Paragon transmission turns? Can I swap the forward/reverse lever around?

Agian, thanks for the clarification. I just wanted to make absolutely double sure that i got the right cam, firing order, prop, etc. before I assemble this motor.

This is good; I am learning more about marine engines
all the time.

Merry xmas,
John
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Paragon Trans

Post by evansjw44 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:04 am

The Paragon trans can be set up for either rotation If its a hydraulic trans, the pump has to be changed to the correct position for the rotation. The pump is the same for both rotations but it has two possible locations that essentially flip the inlet and outlet ports to accomadate the rotation change.

The reverse band also has to changed to its alternate position. That involves removing the gear set from the case.

In forward, the Paragon uses a clutch in the gear set pack to lock the gear set up to give a direct drive 1:1 ratio. For reverse, the Paragon releases the clutch and applies a band around the gear set drum and the planetary gears in the set reverse the output shaft rotation and gives a 1.3:1 or so ratio change.
Jim Evans

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Cam Drive

Post by evansjw44 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 8:12 am

On the marinized small block chevies I don't think there is any difference in the cam butt that you put the drive on. The think the chain sprocket and the drive gear have the same bolt pattern and pin arrangement. On a car application the cam butts may well be different because the gear drive set-ups often have an idler gear to keep the cam rotation the same as the chain drive.

Note the oil pump is driven from the distributor which is driven off the cam. The cam keeps the same rotation on the distributor to retain the oil pump rotation the same.

Some marine conversions keep the chain drive for both rotations but change the distributor drive gear to get the rotation correct for the oil pump.
Jim Evans

jahearne
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Post by jahearne » Sun Dec 27, 2009 3:31 am

Thanks Jim; that's some good info.

John
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Paul P
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It's a RH motor for sure

Post by Paul P » Tue Jan 05, 2010 12:26 pm

jahearne wrote:Does anyone know if the single engine on '65 18' Super Sport suppose to be opposite rotation?

Is an opposite rotation the same as a right hand rotation?

Thanks,
John
The answer to your question is "yes", the flywheel aft 327F is opposite hand rotation (which is opposite to the standard automotive LH rotation) which in this case with flywheel aft is a RH rotation, spinning a RH prop. I never understood why CC did this, when it would have been so much more simple to use automotive LH motors right off the assembly line, without the need for the special gear and reverse pumps, etc. Perhaps this is a marketing issue that CC used to be sure they controlled the supply and income during the initial installation and repowering of their boats. It seems that just about all single engine Chris Craft boats are RH (opposite hand) rotation. As noted, when you get into the Q series or the original 283 flywheel forward, you have to be careful what you call RH or LH, as the motor sometimes thinks it's one thing and the boat manufacturer may be calling it another thing. The flywheel aft 327 is a RH or "opposite rotation" motor.

The 327F is my favorite small block, here is what mine sounds like in my restored 1966 20' fiberglass Sea Skiff #39 of 80 (turn up your speakers)

http://www.youtube.com/v/2ApwasE-qRI&hl ... 1&border=1"



Regards,

Paul
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1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

jahearne
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Post by jahearne » Tue Jan 05, 2010 2:59 pm

Thanks Paul! It sounds great. This is one of my favorite videos. Not mine ...someday soon it will be:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qR9BDELkyco

Ya, that's what I was thinking and made me question wheter or not I had the right engine in the first place. Why use a gear driven cam RH motor when LH, automotive type chain driven, are readily available, which should have been cheaper and made replacement parts easier to get. A single engine runaboat shouldn't care which way the prop turned, right? Like drrot, evansjw44 and others explained to me make sense since a RH rotation is considered standard marine. So I guess Chris-Craft must have wanted to keep standard marine rotation and to use a flywheel aft motor meant to use a two gear driven cam and spin the crank clockwise.


"you have to be careful what you call RH or LH, as the motor sometimes thinks it's one thing and the boat manufacturer may be calling it another thing."

I figured that I'd leave "opposite" rotation out completely and only refer to RH clockwise and LH counterclockwise as view aft.

Thanks again,
John
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Missing Thought

Post by evansjw44 » Tue Jan 05, 2010 4:33 pm

What is missing here is that all you have to do is put a left hand prop and maybe you're done. Outside of the transmission issues. I had a friend years ago that got a super deal on a left hand Gray 327 225Hp V8 for his boat. It was an orphan as someone wanted the right hand and they couldn't sell the left hand. On a single screw, you can just change the prop and live with the fact that it will back to starbopard instead of backing to port.
Jim Evans

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Post by jahearne » Tue Jan 05, 2010 7:10 pm

That's where I was at with the motor I have now. Got a killer deal on a long block been sitting at the marina's shop for years. Started swapping parts from my 327F and noticed timing chain on marina's 327 and gear driven on my 327F. Is this the right engine 'cause it's not original. Should get a another prop, but I would also need another starter and didn't know if the Paragon could be reversed (does it matter?). Altenator? The cracked 327F had very low hours, not a scuff on the lifters or cam lobs and very clean on the inside of the block & valve covers... so I swapped all internals except for rotating assembly and oil pump. New lifters, sandblasting & painting bits 'n bobs...

However, this new block has pop-up pistons. Don't know how the cam from the old 327F will perform with a high compression engine.
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Post by Wood Commander » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:50 pm

In our boating world, Right Hand Rotation is not Opposite Rotation. Right Hand Engine and Prop Rotation will usually be found in a single screw hull, and on the Starboard side of a twin screw boat.

Opposite Rotation is almost always the Port engine and prop on a twin screw boat. This is regardless of what type of engine is used, or whether or not it is flywheel forward or flywheel aft.

The standard of the marine industry is for a Right Handed prop rotation in single screw hulls and on the Starboard side in twin screw hulls no matter how this is achieved.
Left Hand Rotation is "opposite". You can use a Left Hand prop on a single screw hull, but your prop choice will not come as easily. You can probably get any prop you want, but odds are you won't find one on a shelf in just the size, pitch and type you need at a reasonable price as easily as you will for the same model in Right Hand rotation. Since a Right Hand prop is in use in both single and twin screw boats, more will be made and sold since Left Hand props are usually only found in twin screw applications for counter- rotation, there will be a greater emphasis put on Right Handed props.
The same holds true for camshaft selection on an engine that rotates backwards as compared to a car engine, but in our usage this is less of a problem.

And some older single screw boats have the shaft and strut offset and setup for a Right Hand prop and even the rudders trimmed or sporting split or bent sections to compensate for the torque of a Right Hand prop. Penn Yann boats and some Lymans are some that come readily to mind when I think about "crooked" rudders.

There will be more single and Starboard Right Hand props sold than Left Handed props. Therefore, more developement, manufacturing and stocking will be done for Right Hand props than for Left Hand props. So it is easier to find a large range of sizes, pitches and types of Right Hamd props.

Going back into the history of Chris Craft powerplants, the old flathead, inline Hercules/Chris Craft engines (which were used flywheel forward by Chris Craft) were designated as say- ML for a single screw and Starboard in twin screw "M" series engine applications, and MLO for the Port engine in a twin screw boat. The Hercules stampings on the block would also show opposite on the (Port) engine, even though as far as Hercules was concerned, they didn't know where the engine was going. So from Hercules these examples would have JXLD and JXLDO stamped on them. There are still Hercules records in existence in Massillon, Ohio at a company called Hercules Engine Components showing which engine serial numbers were standard or opposite.
After Chris Craft aquired the shortblocks, they sometimes added ML and MLO to the perspective stamping pads beside and coinciding with the original Hercules stampings.

When the first flywheel forward Chevy/Chris Craft 283 engines came into usage, they followed the same protocol- 283 for the Starboard, Right Hand turning engine (this engine ran the same direction as a car engine), and 283 O for the Port, Left Hand turning engine (backwards to a car engine's rotation, but only needed for the Port engine on a twin screw boat). Remember, these engines were flywheel forward- "backwards" as compared to a car application.
I'm pretty sure the 283 H models also would have been designated 283 H and 283 HO as well with the same meaning. I think the H meant hydraulic transmission.

So with the flywheels placed forward (backwards), a standard car rotation engine could be used in single screw boat or the Starboard side of a twin screw boat without having to get into the engine and modify it's internal camshaft drive and gearing.

Next came the "F" Chevy/Chris Craft flywheel aft small blocks. An "F" would turn to the Right for a single screw application and for the Starboard engine in a twin screw boat. This is backwards from a car engine and the engine's cam gear has to be modified.
An "FL" would be the Left Hand turning engine in a twin screw boat. This would be the same rotation as a car engine.
The "F" series engines were where the designation changed from "opposite" for the Left Handed prop rotation models to "L", as in "FL"
Notice that I didn't say the ENGINE turned "opposite", I specifically noted the prop turned opposite. There's a reason for that.

After that the "Q" Chevy/Chris Craft flywheel forward small block was introduced. So now a Right Hand turning "Q" (same rotation as a car engine) was found in a single engine runabout or on the Starboard side of a twin screw boat, and a "QL" was found on the Port side of a twin screw boat.

The reason that I specifically called out the prop as turning either "F" and "Q" or "FL" and "QL"- (opposite), is that Chris Craft had to have all of the engines, the Herks, early 283's, F's and Q's as well as any other kind of engine have the abilty to turn not only in the standard car rotation, but also backwards as compared to a car engine so that there could be engines of the same type paired up for counter- rotation usage in twin screw cruisers.

Now, more confusion. As I mentioned in an earlier post, when they got to the fiberglass Lancers (and I think XK's and other Cortland, NY Corsair Division boats) using Volvo "Transdrive" inboard/outboard outdrives, they used both FL's and QL's without rhyme or reason due to being able to set up the Volvo outdrives to compensate and swing a Right Hand prop with either model of engine.

I think that many of the modern marine engine manufacturers are only producing engines rotating in the standard automotive direction and doing all of the counter- rotation in the gearboxes. It's a lot cheaper for them to build engines that way.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Post by Wood Commander » Tue Jan 05, 2010 11:52 pm

I tried to get this in the last post but my computer wouldn't let me. It's rough not being as smart as a plastic box.
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Bret

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Post by jfrprops » Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:04 am

That last lengthy, nicely detailed, post is quite interesting and a bit confusing. I learned it all this way:

1)Henry Ford or Gottleib Daimler or some such fellow realized that most folks are right handed. Thus they had the strength to hand crank an early engine turning it clockwise from the front of the car.

2) when discussing marine rotation all reference to rotation is made in relation to the direction of rotation when the engine is viewed from the aft end...point of connection to the drive shaft, assuming not a V drive etc.

Right? (I mean CORRECT?)?? What says Jim Evans on this?

john in va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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evansjw44
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Right Hand

Post by evansjw44 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:45 am

I can't atest to the Ford or Daimler story. But, an awful lot of things turn right hand by default. Clocks? You bet, clockwise is right hand. Left hand clocks are amusing. Bolts, mostly right hand except whenh left hand is appropriate. It goes on doesn't it. I've never seen a hand crank car that was left hand. So whether Ford and Dailmer are the source or its cultural I don't know. Remember back when left handed kids were taught to write right hand? My wife does. Her mother was a lefty but learned to write righty, or you slapped by the Nuns.

Us boaters do get hung up on right hand and left hand. But I look at boat developement and see where flywheel forward was a better design because you could get more bottom clearance with the flywheel forward. (and you could turn the crank) Given the engine rotation at its birth then flywheel forward gave us right hand props and standard rotation. Early V8 conversions by Chrysler, Ford, Cadillac, Gray (Buick and AMC) all had clearnace issues with flywheel aft installation and rotation conversion. Anybody remember the Borg Warner trans that had the rotation reversing interenal gear set?
Jim Evans

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Post by jfrprops » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:54 am

Yes Jim, I write lefty and do everything else either hand...totally ambi! Drive nails either hand no problem and a true blessing! But the nuns worked me over with the ruler alright....

On the velvet drives: weren't paragons, though DESIGNED to a certain rotation, also reverseable via switching the reduction unit? That is to say, paragons have a prefered gear rotation but you could switch sides? I know I have put RH gears on LH engines with paragons...they make a bit more noise but it works doesn't it? Never dealt that much with the BW velvets...and my mind is still stuck in the sixties anyway????
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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evansjw44
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Reverseable Trans

Post by evansjw44 » Wed Jan 06, 2010 1:15 pm

The Paragon can be assembled for either rotation. To get from one to the other you have to partially disassemble it and put it together in a different configuration. This involves the reverse band, and, if its hydraulic, the pump. But the input and output shaft turn the same direction in forward in direct drive. The reduction gear does not reverse the rotation on a Paragon.

The Borg Warner trans I referenced was built so that direct drive reversed the rotation of the input shaft from the output shaft. It allowed you to use a "standard" rotation engine to provide opposite rotation drive at the shaft. No changes were required in the engine. Both Twin-Disc and ZF offer that kind of design for diesel applications. Its cheaper to buy the double rotation trans than to have to reverse the rotation of the diesel. Unless, of course, its a direct revereable engine like a Fairbanks-Morse or Cooper-Bessemer.

Some outdrives have this feature too.
Jim Evans

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Post by jfrprops » Thu Jan 07, 2010 11:27 am

Yes Jim, I recall that now, on the paragon you just rotate the back plate and the band to reverse....
I guess what I recall now about the gear, thanks to your clarification, is that the gear can be used on either side/either rotation, though the gear has a prefered rotation.
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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