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Engine removal

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dustoff135
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Engine removal

Post by dustoff135 » Sun Apr 27, 2008 4:35 pm

I am in the process of pulling the engine from my 1971 XK 19. It has a Volvo Penta 250 with a 350 Chevy.

The manual I am referring to says that the upper gear box or the outdrive needs to removed prior to pulling the engine. I have done this by unhooking all the attached hoses and cables and removing the pivot pins so the drive could be lifted off. The splined shaft is now visible at the transom. Most of the cable, hoses and wiring have been detached at the engine to facilitate easy removal.

My question is whether or not anything else needs to be removed from the outside. The manual refers to retaining bolts, but is unclear as to what exactly that is or how many. Of course I don't want to take any more off than absolutely necessary. Are there bolts that secure the engine to the part of the outdrive that extends through the transom? After removing the lag bolts in the stringers, will the engine simply slide forward to be lifted out?

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Post by Wood Commander » Mon Apr 28, 2008 4:58 pm

I'm in the process of learning all I can about the Chevy small block V8/Volvo outdrives as used in the Corsair Division boats.

My 23' Lancer (same lower base hull as the XK-22)has a 307Q and a Volvo 250 drive. This boat was sold with either a flywheel forward "Q" or the flywheel aft "F", go figure!

I want to convert it to a .030 over 400 (406 cu. in.) in the "F" configuration with a Volvo 280 lower unit. To that end, I have been rounding up Chris Craft "F" and Volvo 280 parts.
One of my parts aquisitions was a complete 22' Bayliner (ugh!) with a Chevy 350 and a Volvo 280 drive.
I have pulled the drive, the transom shield and the engine out of the donor boat. Many parts for a flywheel aft setup are the same or at least interchangeable as used in a Chris Craft "F" (FLV in a Volvo drive Corsair Division boat) configuration. These would be- the entire drive unit, the transom shield, the lift motor mechanism, the bell housing, the flywheel, the coupler and the long engine block.
This stuff (maybe not the long engine block) is Volvo- sourced and would be supplied to any boat or engine builder to be hung on the back of their engine being installed into almost any hull. Or it could have Volvo's version of a marinized Chevy small block engine up front as well. With a different bellhousing and related parts Volvo drives could also go behind other engines. But we are interested in the small block Chevy here, and the Chris Craft marine version.

Parts that are most likely different and Chris Craft- specific are- intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, sea water pump system, engine cooling pump setup, pulleys and brackets and front motor mounts.

Depending upon how original and accurate you want to be, you can swap around a great deal of these things as long as you work out the logistics of installation.

I'm going to be using mainly the Chris Craft engine stuff from the "F" configuration, with the exception of using Mercruiser- style center dump exhaust manifolds. But I needed the Bayliner/Volvo bellhousing, flywheel and coupler to make it all work with the outdrive since I am changing over from a "Q" configuration. If I could have found a Chris Craft 283, or 327 FLV I could have used the parts off of that engine rather than gathering up the parts from different engines and drives.

Now back to your original question, the transom shield has a shaft and bearings in it. This is the splined end that you are seeing. You can pull the engine forward, up and off of the bellhousing. The one thing that might hold you up is the sheet metal flywheel shield at the front bottom edge of the bellhousing, it will have to be removed to let the flywheel slide out. I think it is best to break it apart this way and then go back and get the bellhousing off of the shield later. There are bolt heads held from turning in the bellhousing facing the transom shield that sometimes turn anyway and you want to be able to hold them. And if you have the exhaust "Y", it will come off easier after the bellhousing is removed. It's really "fun" getting to most of these bolts and nuts!

It was a while back when I did this, so I hope I remembered everything correctly. I'll try to get a picture and post it of the transom shield assembly by itself to show the splined shaft.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Post by Wood Commander » Tue Apr 29, 2008 12:59 am

Here's some pictures that I took of the Volvo transom shield assembly. The first picture is the front of the shield (inside the boat) and the second should be the rear (outside) if things go correctly with the picture posts.
As far as I can tell the transom shields are fairly much the same between the different Volvo outdrives (250, 270 and 280 without hydraulic lift). But if that is not correct, I want to learn about it.

I first decided I liked the Volvo 280 outdrive when I bought a 1968 19' Chris Craft Corsair Division Lancer (the same basic lower hull as the XK-19) that had a 280 hooked to a Chris Craft 283 FLV. When I bought this boat I was just interested in having a fun, running boat while I worked on my cruiser restoration. At the time I was actually disapointed that I didn't find a straight inboard drive Chris Craft (I don't think there was a straight inboard drive 19' Lancer) even though I wasn't totally into an authentic classic for this boating experience.

But as I worked on, ran and used this boat, I fell in love with the Lancers and found the Volvo outdrive to actually be a pretty nice unit that does have a few advantages over an inboard boat. This new love started me into researching the Lancers and Volvo drive units.

So now I'm hooked on two totally different kinds of and eras of Chris Craft boats, just what I needed! Oh, and I kind of got into 1980's Chris Craft Scorpions for a while too, owning a 1985 23'er with a Mercruiser Chevy 350/260 hp drivetrain.

Anyway, I found that even though the Volvo drives have different numbers, they don't seem to progress by year or horsepower. My 1968 19' Lancer had a 185 hp 283 FLV and a Volvo 280 outdrive. While my "new" 1970 23' Lancer has a 200 hp 307 QLV and a Volvo 250 outdrive. I like the 280 for the bigger horizontal fin, the simpler vertical blade fin, and I've heard that they can clear a bigger prop, but I haven't measured the 250 versus the 280 yet.
Image

Image
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

dustoff135
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Post by dustoff135 » Tue Apr 29, 2008 7:21 am

Thanks Bret,

I'll go back to the boat today or tomorrow for a closer look. I need to see if it looks just like this set-up. My manual says to remove the bolts that you can see from the outside, 6 in the retaining ring. I guess that allows the spline/bearing assembly to come out with the engine. I guess that will be easier than trying to get at the housing bolts from the inside.

Patrick

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Post by dustoff135 » Thu May 15, 2008 7:12 pm

Since no one seemed to know, I'll share what I found out through trial and error. All of the material I read said that I needed to remove the outdrive.

EEHHH!! Wrong answer. There is absolutely no need to remove anything on the outside of the boat for engine removal in this application. Merely unbolt at the aft end of the bellhousing and lift the engine out. This of course after unhooking the throttle linkage and associated wiring. It's actually quite simple, just have a good hoist and a couple of friends to steer the 500 pounds.

Attached is a photo of how it looks with the engine out. This is a 1971 CC XK 19 with a Chevy 350.
Image

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Post by Wood Commander » Thu May 15, 2008 9:53 pm

Is your 350 a flywheel forward "Q" (QLV)? It looks like the blue section that stayed with your transom shield is different than the one that I pictured in a previous post. That one was from a Bayliner that should mimick a Chris Craft flywheel aft "F"- type set up.

It looks like you might be able to bolt/unbolt in either "center section" into the Volvo outdrive transom shield. If this is so, I wonder if it was Volvo or Chris Craft that came up with the Chris Craft blue section in your picture? Usually Volvo stuff that isn't white is red, even the bellhousings on Chris Craft 283 and 327 FLV's.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

dustoff135
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Post by dustoff135 » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:58 pm

Since I did finally figure out how to get the engine out, I've been busy getting it ready to go back in. Here is how she currently looks, and I should be bolting on the rest of the parts in a day or two followed by a test run and leak check.

Patrick

Image
8)

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breathers

Post by THE RAZZ » Mon Jun 30, 2008 8:29 pm

Pat,
Nice engine!
Where do the valve cover breathers feed?
My 350 has them sitting on top of the manifold flopping around.

If you have a picture with the breather attachment to carb or manifold, it would help. Thx.

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Post by Wood Commander » Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:54 am

Ah, it's a flywheel aft Chevy/Chris Craft F (FLV) rather than a flywheel forward Chevy/Chris Craft Q (QLV in an inboard/outboard application with a Volvo outdrive}.

The early 283's and 327's, like the F's, had the crankcase breather in a special housing at the rear of the engine valley and in the fill pipe cap that was located in the front of the intake manifold. Chris Craft just added a smaller pipe coming off the fill pipe tube that ran over and vented in front of the carburetor flame arrestor just like the old vent tubes on the Hercules/Chris Craft flathead sixes did. The suction from the carburetor venturi action pulls the fumes into the carb. F's had no pcv valves in the valve covers. This (the engine in the picture in the previous post)is probably the special 350 Corvette engine, so there may be some differences here.

On later engines, like Q's or Mercruiser's, there are no fill pipes in the intake manifold, you now have the pcv valves in grommeted openings (and twist- in oil fill caps) in the valve covers, and the hoses from the pcv valves run up to the flame arrestor where special brackets on the flame arrestor held the hose ends right up against the arrestor.


The first picture here is a Chevy/Mercruiser 350 engine in my old 23' Chris Craft Scorpion. You can't see the arrestor hose brackets due to the square plastic cover over the carb and arrestor. But you can see the hoses going in there.

The second picture is of the 307 Q in my 23' Chris Craft Lancer. I think that the arrestor is not correct and actually from a Mercruiser due to the "power steering" decal on the arrestor and the fact that it had a Mercruiser quadrajet carb on it when I got it. But this picture shows the hose end brackets on the arrestor.

The last picture is of the 283 F (FLV) in my old 19' Chris Craft Lancer. This shows the tube coming off of the oil fill pipe that vents in front of the flame arrestor.

Image

Image

Image
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Post by Wood Commander » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:01 am

Going back and taking a closer look at the nice, newly redone 350 FLV in the prior post, If you look carefully you can see a yet- to- be- hooked up pcv valve hose end bracket at the rear of the gold colored flame/spark arrestor.

It looks like the pcv hose from the other side of the engine is going to an unported vaccuum source at the base of the carburetor where it will have strong vaccuum.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Post by THE RAZZ » Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:53 am

Bret,
That helped. Thx for the pictures.
The copper pipes are a nice addition.
Very cool.

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Post by Wood Commander » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:05 pm

I was just thinking about something very important. In my previous post and pictures, you can see how the different Chris Craft and Mercruiser engines ran the crankcase vent lines out to dump into the atmosphere just in front of the flame arrestor and let the suction going down the carb draw the crankcase vapors into the airflow from just outside the arrestor. Sort of a "passive" arrangement.

This works fine and is how many manufacturers did it on marine applications for many years.

BUT, you would have to have free- flowing vent hoses in order for this system to work. If you have angled valve cover connections, they must be hollow or open. You can't use an elbow fitting that has a pcv valve, or any other restriction in this application, it will stop the flow without a strong, "aggressive", directly connected vaccuum source to make the pcv valve "flutter" open.

You can use a pcv valve in an application where the hose is hooked up to a substantial "aggressive" direct vaccuum source, like at the base of the carburetor. The strong vaccuum here will make the pcv valve "flutter", opening a passageway for the crankcase pressure to flow into the intake tract.

So if you have pcv valves in your vent hoses dumping out "passively" into the atmosphere just outside of the flame arrestor, you will probably have little to no scavenging affect and your built up crankcase pressure will not be relieved, at least not from this location.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

dustoff135
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Post by dustoff135 » Fri Jul 04, 2008 10:14 am

Hi Razz, thanks for the compliment on the engine. I've been working hard on it.

We ran her for the first time on Tuesday and she purred like a kitten. It was great, it fired right up. The next day we set the timing and checked to see that a couple of water leaks had been fixed. I did some detailing and she is ready for installation, now if I can just get the hull ready to drop it back in. SOON!!!

The port side PCV and tube go to the front of the carb as you can see in the photo. The starboard side has a PCV valve and tube which clamps to the 5/8 inch short tube on the side of the flame arrestor. I will try to get a photo from a better angle.

This is how it was when I bought the boat. Is it original? I assume so but not 100% sure. It is the 350 LT1 engine as Bret mentioned.

Happy 4th of July!

Patrick

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Post by THE RAZZ » Fri Jul 04, 2008 2:01 pm

Guys,
With the 202 Stinger's 350 F engine that dumped 4 quarts of oil in the bilge Father's Day- we now know what happened but have no clue WHY?! Initially, this all started with a concern that crankcase pressure (stuck PVC valves, etc) blew the rear main oil seal. It didn't. The pan cracked?!

The 350's oil pan has a crack on the bottom 1" inboard of the drain plug. Pulling the engine and replacing pan with a pan from Vic Hubbard Speed Marine fixes the problem. But the lingering concern- what caused the crack continues.

Two why's are a puzzle. How can a steel pan crack? Why would it be OK for about 35 hrs and then leak?!

First thought was, when the engine was rebuilt it may have set on the floor. But that could bend it but it wouldn't crack it. Maybe time to let go and move on.

Any thoughts on how a steel oil pan could "crack?"

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Post by Wood Commander » Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:28 am

Did you see my post a couple of posts back about the two different types of crankcase fume scavenging? Where I talked about the two different ways of doing it and how you needed to make sure that the "passive" system does not actually have a pcv valve in it that woud block the flow without a positive vaccuum source?

Well, I do have an idea about your cracked oil pan. But I'm warning you ahead of time, it's a bit "out there"!

Anyway, here goes-

I'm wondering if you did have too much crankcase pressure build up due to the pcv hoses just laying on the engine as you described, not hooked up to anything. If the hoses had the restrictions of pcv valves, without being hooked to any vaccuum source, you would not be getting any venting.

So, I'm wondering if maybe the oil pan was "oil canning" like the old long, narrow spout tin oil cans where you pushed the bottom and flexed the metal to pump a little oil out the spout. You said that you heard a kind of clank or other kind of noise now and then right before it happened?

If it was being bulged out at the bottom from pressure build up, and then releasing and flexing, it could have caused the crack. Admittedly, there are a few issues with this theory. Everything else in the engine would have had to hold pressure while the oil pan bulged out. Then something would have had to have "farted" to let the pressure off and the pan return to it's normal shape. You may have lost oil from both the rear main seal before, AND the crack after the pan actually broke.

Other than that, I could only guess that something from the rotating assembly was getting too close to the bottom of the pan. Again, a stretch. Did the oil pump have one of those swiveling pickups on it?

Can you gain any clues from the damaged oil pan? Any shiny metal streaks or creases from repeated flexing? Or any cracked paint in the area on the exterior or burn marks inside from something rubbing somewhere?

Also, I have been looking at some old Chris Craft "Q" series engine sales and spec sheets that I have. I only had time to glance at them quickly, but it did appear that they used BOTH methods of venting the crankcase. It appeared that the left bank valve cover vent hose went to the base of the carb and got positive vaccuum suction, and the right side hose went to the fitting on the flame arrestor, using the "passive" method.

Over the weekend I got some pictures of a Q in a freinds cruiser, but he has aftermarket valve covers and possibly flame arrestor too, so looking at it was inconclusive. It had both hoses going to the passive style fittings. I'll check into this some more.

I hope we can find the cause of the cracked oil pan. It's a pretty good mystery!
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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oil canning

Post by THE RAZZ » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:41 am

Bret,
Nice analysis. Everything is on hold. The barrel back is bing fussy and acting up like only an older sibling can. Its a family squable. What's a guy to do.

The pan will get the inspection for all of the above when the 350 F (flywheel aft) comes out. Lets hope that is before long.

Re oil canning- that's a good thing to keep in mind. However, inspecting the pan with a clean rag, there's no oil trace around the real main oil seal. But, under the pan near the drain plug fresh oil drips on the rag. It drips 4 quarts overnight into the bilge. The crack can be felt with bare fingers and oil covers a rag when wipped.

During the 15 hours of operation after buying the boat there was a mysterious "pop" every 30 minutes of so while running in the 2500-3500rpm range. The "popping" couldn't be traced at that speed with all the thrashing around and noise.

The breathers come off this morning for closer inspection to see if they are passive open hoses and fittings or if there a PVC is included.

More to follow this afternoon.

PS do you have experience installing/removing a 350F attached to a Mercruiser Alpha One? An illstrated parts manual would be a help. Seeing the aft (flywheel) end attachment to the transome would be a help. The front is obvious with the two 1" bolt lord mounts.

Thx for the thoughts.

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Post by dustoff135 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 2:59 pm

Hey Razz, here's a pic of my engine from a better angle. Hope this helps.

The red tube will be replaced with a new black one.

Patrick
Image

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Nice

Post by Peter XK19 » Mon Jul 07, 2008 4:05 pm

Patrick,
Looks very nice your engine!

but eh........the oil filler cap :wink:

Peter
www.xk19.com

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Post by THE RAZZ » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:03 pm

Bret,
Very clean. Nice. Pete's got a point- putting oil in will be a challenge.

Solved the barrelback's issue today. Now, onward to the Stinger's oil pan issue. So much to do, so little time. Thank god for retirement.

Jerry

dustoff135
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Post by dustoff135 » Tue Jul 08, 2008 8:09 am

Not sure what you are referring to with the oil filler cap. It is a new part from Year One nad is beside the oil dipstick. No problems accessing it. Actually the previous owner had it on the wrong side and it had to be wrestled from underneath the copper tube.

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oil filler assembly

Post by THE RAZZ » Tue Jul 08, 2008 2:11 pm

re oil filler-
The standard oil filler under the crankcase vent pipe/hose assembly was the reference.

Can you show a picture of the Napa oil filler that's next to the dipstick. Very clean assembly.

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Post by Ocean Scout » Thu Jul 10, 2008 4:20 pm

Dustoff-
I just read through your post and would like to offer my 2c if I may.

I've removed my 350GLV several times for various reasons...rotted plywood in transom, rotted oil pan and replacement of bearings in intermediate housing.

I noticed that you left the intermediate housing attached to the transom shield. I suggest removing it and replacing the two bearings inside while they are accessable. These bearings are exposed to any water salt or fresh if the outdrive boot ever develops a leak.

Over the years I've had water in the boot, in the drive, everywhere. Its amazing how bullet proof these Volvo drives are.

Anyway, if you suspect that your bearings may have been exposed to the elements, now may be the time to replace them.

Everything else looks great, nice neat paint job. Good luck!

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Post by dustoff135 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:37 pm

Hi Scout,

I plan on doing that very thing, but have no idea the best way to take it apart. I have two shop manuals that do not address the removal and service of the shaft. I would love to hear anything you have to say about this.

Does the intermediate housing need to be removed? It looks like it should be easy to get to, I just don't want any surprises. Does it only have the seals at either end, 2 bearings and I believe circle clips?

Patrick

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Post by dustoff135 » Thu Jul 10, 2008 6:40 pm

Scout,

By the way, thanks for the compliment. The transom and oil pan are in great shape. I don't think this boat saw a lot of use in its long life.

Patrick

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Post by Ocean Scout » Fri Jul 11, 2008 9:22 am

Patrick,

I think the reason you dont find much information on the shaft/bearings is because this is where different engine manufacturers models adapted to the drive. Although the variations are extensive the basic assembly is the same.

It's been several years but I remember removing the oil seal first, behind that is a snap ring that holds the bearing in place. This applies to both ends, thats why I suggested removing the housing from the transom shield. Or, you could do one end in the boat and the other outside.

From experience, it really is rather simple to remove/install the engine with the housing attached to the engine. I think it will be easier to guide the housing 'tail' into the transom shield rather than aligning the multiple bell housing bolts.

From outside you'll notice three semi-circular plates with the corners bent-up to act as a locking device against the bolt heads. Push these down and remove the six bolts. Depending upon the level of corrosion present, the clamping ring should fall away exposing a large O-ring. Remove the O-ring and the housing can be removed into the boat.

Perhaps the attached schematic will help.
Image

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illustrated parts manual

Post by THE RAZZ » Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:34 am

Bret,
The illustrated parts manual above is great. Is it the Volvo Penta outdrive?

Can you suggest a source for the Mercruiser Alpha One illustrated parts manual?
Jerry
1942 17' barrelback 71923
1987 21' CC Stinger

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Post by Wood Commander » Sat Jul 12, 2008 10:15 pm

Yes, that's the Volvo drive pictured. Just get a Mercruiser manual appropriate to your boat/engine year and model.
Your Mercruiser powertrain is flywheel aft like a Chris Craft F engine, but it is a small block Chevy engine from a totally different marine engine manufacturer (Mercruiser) and does not have the same marine conversion components.

For example, the copper riser coolant tubes that you complimented earlier are a normal Chris Craft F component, they are just usually painted blue (it looks good in shiny copper!). Your Mercruiser will not have that same component.

Chris Craft went to Mercruiser powertrains in approximately 1979 which coincides with the replacement of the Lancer line by the Scorpion line which later evolved into the Stinger models.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Blue housing

Post by oldshore » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:11 pm

Can anyone tell me more about the blue housing which fits between the transom shield and the bell housing. It is in the picture in dustoff135's posting.
This a Chris Craft specific part?
I assume there bearings and a shaft in there to be concerned with - lubrication,etc.?
What is the screw for on the top of the housing?

Thanks

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Post by dustoff135 » Tue Jul 29, 2008 8:53 am

Hi Oldshore,

Is it a Chris Craft specific part? I don't know, but it is bolted to a Chevy 350. Of course it's just used an extension to the engine bellhousing.

I replaced the bearings and seals last week, two of each with snap rings (circle clips) to hold the bearings in place. After installing the engine side bearing and seal, the void around the shaft was pumped full of grease through the hole in the top before installing the other bearing and seal. This assures an almost endless supply of grease (approx. 8-10 oz.) for lubrication and should water leak in somehow, provides little place for it to go and a barrier to protect the internal parts. I think it should be ready for the next 37 years of service.

Do not replace the cap until everything is installed and you turn the shaft by hand a bit. I had replaced the cap early and it was all sealed so well that it was trying push one of the seals out of place. I loosened the screw and it released a little air and of course some grease spooed out to make a mess on the clean surfaces.

Patrick
Patrick

Previous projects: 1940 17' Barrelback, #71572
1971 XK19, ORCZ19-2016V

New project: Looking???

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Post by oldshore » Tue Jul 29, 2008 9:11 am

I guess the bearings and seals are a standard size? Where would I purchase them? What kind of grease did you use? Thanks, Jay

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