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1965 Sea-V? Please help with positive ID...

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njtaco
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1965 Sea-V? Please help with positive ID...

Post by njtaco » Sun May 03, 2009 2:00 pm

Greetings to all...

I joined just today, after many hours searching and putting about this site, absorbing as much as I can.

I somewhat recently acquired a Chris-Craft / Thompson / Corsair of 1965? vintage. Prior to her arrival here in Southern New Jersey, she lived a life of pleasure taking her caretaker fishing out of Keyport, NJ, off shore and about Sandy Hook.

The NJ title (registration) has her identity as a 20 foot, 1965, fiberglass, gasoline powered inboard. All this is true (surprisingly...)

Now for the pics, 'cause everyone likes pics, right? :D

The first is self explanatory. I do not think the color is right, I believe it has been painted at one time. I am positive the topsides were, as it is peeling some.

Image

The second pic is color inverted, for clarity. I'm sure most of you know what this plate looks like in the correct colors by now...

Image

This is the transom. She had trim tabs (stolen) and has a swim platform on the starboard side of the transom.

Image

I feel obliged to post a pic just before I nearly slipped off the trailer tongue :oops:

Image

Aaaand the last pic for today (it's raining here, so more later 8) )

The cockpit...well, the altered-by-owner version. I have yet to see an image with this arrangement, so i assume it to be home made.

Image

Next up, a post with questions. (Yup, just as you expected... :twisted: ) :(
Last edited by njtaco on Sun May 03, 2009 7:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Wood Commander
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Post by Wood Commander » Sun May 03, 2009 2:17 pm

I can't tell from the pictures if you have an inboard or an inboard/outboard. But your boat appears to be a 20' Sea- V from the Corsair Division in Cortland, NY. There were also versions of this boat named as Sea Skiffs. I think the Sea Skiff version was more rare. CCABC member Paul Pletcher has a Sea Skiff version of this boat.
I don't have any 1965 catalogs, but here is some 1968 stuff.

Image

Image

Image
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

njtaco
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The inevitable questions...

Post by njtaco » Sun May 03, 2009 2:23 pm

My extensive research (ha) has me believing this fine craft was manufactured in the Thompson factory in NY a few years after CC bought them. It is probably within the first 2-3 years of production of fiberglass hulls of this type. A reference here (on this site) indicated there may have only been as few as 300 of these inboard models created over the 5? year production run. They may not have shared model names or colors, but basicly the same hull.

Does this sound right? I'm striving for accuracy.

Question one: I have searched for the original hull number on the outer transom, port inside bow (by the gunwale), and along the stringers on either side of the engine. Where else could I check?

Question two: What is the correct way to refer to this boat? That is, what model is it, and who made it? And where? (I think I know where, but I'm not sure...)

Question three: Is there a typical value associated with this model? Is it a candidate for rejuvination or restoration, and if restored would it be worth what is invested?

Here is why I ask...I have no emotional bond to this boat, but like it very much. She needs a lot of TLC, but I don't have the resources to restore her in a timely fashion. I don't want her to rot away, but don't want to "give" her away for someone else to let her rot, either. My father (in his mid-60's) has said he would like to work on it with me, but I do not see that happening anytime soon. We live some distance apart.

There is of course a financial incentive, too. If I do sell her to a collector/restorer, I would want to try for top dollar. That's just human nature, and I make no apology for it. :evil: The trouble is, I do not know what that value is, until I know the proper model designation.

Thanks for reading my ramblings...I hope I did not wear out my welcome already.
Last edited by njtaco on Sun May 03, 2009 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

njtaco
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Post by njtaco » Sun May 03, 2009 2:27 pm

Wood Commander,

Thanks for the information. She is an inboard. Does the shifter to the port side of the captain's chair indicate anything? That is, is it factory (my dad thinks it is) and does it indicate what transmission is in it?

Image

Yup, more questions...

Thanks,

Bob

njtaco
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Post by njtaco » Sun May 03, 2009 2:50 pm

Wood Commander wrote:member Paul Pletcher has a Sea Skiff version of this boat.
This one, right? :D Verrry nice. In fact, his images of her help keep me on track with restoration in mind. All the potential is here, I think.

Image


There are differences in the way the vents are over the transom vs. mine, and I have not seen my style in any pics, yet. I am hoping that distinction will help ID the hull.

Mine:


Image

njtaco
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Post by njtaco » Sun May 03, 2009 2:58 pm

Oh, does anyone have either original pics or restoration images of the deck? Not the topside, but inside the boat. What would be correct to restore her with? I do not want to salvage the plywood that is there now, it is too far gone for my taste.

Thanks again,

Bob

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Sun May 03, 2009 2:59 pm

I'm prety sure this is a Corsair 20' Sea-V Inboard. They were indeed built at the Thompson of Cortland New York facility, owned by Chris-Craft sinse late 1962, early '63. The hull number would be a series ORA-20-something but don't know where to look. A total of 220 were built between '65 and '68, 75 of them in 1965.

Currently, there's no information in the Club Archive about them. Find the hull number and request a research package from the Mariners' Museum.

Al

P.S. Hull number, where to look:

Corsair Division Boats
• On the exterior surface of the port bow, just aft of the stem and slightly below and parallel to the sheer.
• Stamped into the engine mounting pad, in the case of outboard powered boats, and into a transom frame or suitable wood member in this area. Where no wood surface is readily available, the number will be glassed into the transom on the inboard side.

From the Mariners' Museum website.

njtaco
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Post by njtaco » Sun May 03, 2009 3:11 pm

Thanks Al,

The partial hull # helps, too. At least now I know what Alpha-numeric sequence I'm looking for!

So I may have one of 75 built...I like the sound of that. No sense collecting something everybody else can have...LOL!

The more I read and post here, the more I want to keep her.

I've heard her run, but that means nothing more than "sounds like an inboard." How do these ride? I mean with the trim tabs, BTW. My use would be a little fishing, some water skiing, but mostly going for rides out to restaurants on the water, and possibly meeting up with other enthusiasts.

Thanks again,

Bob
Last edited by njtaco on Sun May 03, 2009 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

njtaco
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Post by njtaco » Sun May 03, 2009 3:49 pm

Al Benton wrote:
P.S. Hull number, where to look:

Corsair Division Boats
• On the exterior surface of the port bow, just aft of the stem and slightly below and parallel to the sheer.
• Stamped into the engine mounting pad, in the case of outboard powered boats, and into a transom frame or suitable wood member in this area. Where no wood surface is readily available, the number will be glassed into the transom on the inboard side.

From the Mariners' Museum website.
Aahhh...I was looking INSIDE the port side bow. I did find a wasp nest or three...par for the course, I guess. At least it is still cold out! Thanks for the reference. I'll check inside the transom too. I may pull the fuel tank if necessary. I really want to find this id number...

I've not been to the Museum website...off to research! :D


On Edit:

Woo Hoo! Thanks again Al, I checked around the outside locations you posted above, and this is what I found:


Image

So I'm stoked...time to send a check off to the Museum and see what information they have about her. I think I'll talk my dad into driving down with me to pick up whatever they come up with...he is a long time "Wooden Boat" magazine subscriber, and loves anything with classic lines. Probably getting ahead of myself, but it could be a great father/son outing. Life is short, right?

Wood Commander
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Post by Wood Commander » Sun May 03, 2009 6:36 pm

There is a book called "Chris Craft, The Essential Guide" by Jerry Conrad of The Mariner's Museum. Your boat is found on page 648. It is a 20' Sea- V, not a Sea Skiff (page 505) like Paul's even though it is basically the same boat. The Sea Skiff hull number prefixes are GUA and GUB in 1966 and 1967.

There were 75 Sea- V inboards built in 1965, but they were also built for the next three years for a total of 220. The hull number prefixes for each year were ORA, ORB, ORC and ORC in 1968, but with four numbers instead of three for the production number- ORC 20 2001-2035.

The Guide shows hull color as Red & White with white waterline for 1965-67, with white deck and white upholstery.

Power was a Chevy/Chris Craft 283. There is a B&W photo available, # PI 4764.

I would think the shifter is probably correct.
I'd look on Craig's List or on ebay to see if I could see what other ones are going for. They are not that common to find though. I don't know if Lou Raugh from the Wood Boat Center in Cincinatti could help with that boat or not, he keeps tabs on wooden boat values, he is in that business.

For many Chris Craft models, 75 a year or 220 over four years isn't always a low production. It kind of depends on the model of boat, and fiberglass or wood. But we don't seem to see as many of these boats as survivors.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Sun May 03, 2009 6:57 pm

I'm guessing that two divisions sold the same basic boat as a marketing tool. Did certain dealers sell only one or the other, Sea Skiff or Corsair but not both?

Al

njtaco
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Post by njtaco » Sun May 03, 2009 7:42 pm

Wood Commander wrote:There is a book called "Chris Craft, The Essential Guide" by Jerry Conrad of The Mariner's Museum.
Wood Commander,

Thanks for the additional information, I appreciate it. Do you have the book referenced above? It sounds like you may... Could you post/PM/e-mail to me the ISBN number? I'd like the library at work to track a copy down for me, and the search is ISBN driven. That way I can preview it before spending the $50 for my own copy (which I will if it is worth it for my needs, of course.)

Thanks for the lead to Lou Raugh, I'll look him up for sure.

Thanks,

Bob

ETA: The model is pronounced "sea-vee" right? Not "sea-five" (which sounds ridiculous to me)?

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Sun May 03, 2009 8:18 pm

That ISBN is 0-917376-53-6 (Hardback) for the Chris-Craft - The Essential Guide by Jerry Conrad.

Get a copy before you and your dad visit the Museum and have Jerry autograph it for you.

Al

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Post by Thommyboy » Tue May 05, 2009 6:33 am

You have to remember that the Corsair Division of Chris-Craft grew out of Thompson Boat Company of New York, Inc. Thompson had its own dealer network in a product line that was not covered by Chris-Craft prior to 1962. That's one of the reasons CC purchased Thompson of NY. I am sure they began to slowly combine dealerships after the purchase in January 1962.

I would assume that some dealerships sold only one of the CC division products. Were their two CC dealers in say, Rochester, NY, one selling Sea Skiff division products and the others selling runabouts and utilities??? Or did CC have one dealer selling all products?

Andreas

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Tue May 05, 2009 9:27 am

I had the dates wrong on the purchase of Thompson, the purchase date was actually Jan. 12, 1962.

Widening Chris-Craft dealership had to play a major role in the purchase but my understanding is they (CC)were primarily looking for a turnkey fiberglass operation that Thompson of New York had all ready to hit the market with. The other advantages were more dealers and re-entering the outboard boat business.

Now, Thompson of New York was a wholy owned subsidiary of Chris-Craft and I understand that they continued building and selling their original wood boats alongside the new Corsairs for some period.

The Sea Skiff 20' Sportsman was introduced in 1966, 4 years after Thompson was purchased and one year after the Thompson/Corsair 20' Sea-V (same basic boat) hit the market.

Is it possible that some Chris-Craft/Sea Skiff dealers didn't have franchise rights to sell the Thompson/Chris-Craft boats until later in the 60's? Don't know.

Al

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Post by Thommyboy » Wed May 06, 2009 12:00 pm

Thompson Boat Company of New York, Inc. did NOT have a fiberglass boat program when Chris-Craft purchased them in January 1962. I don't care what Jeff Rodegen's book said or what other sources said. Thompson of NY was NOT making fiberglass boats in 1961 or early 1962.

It was only AFTER the Chris-Craft purchase that Thompson of NY started the fiberglass program.

Thompson of NY continued to make their wooden lapstrake outboards and inboard/outboards until the middle of 1965. The last wooden boats shipped from Cortland were on 19 July 1965; one to Washington, DC and one to Moavia, NY.

Andreas

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Post by Thommyboy » Wed May 06, 2009 12:08 pm

The 1964 Corsair Boats brochure includes model XL200 Corsair Sea-V Sunlounger. Looks just like the one in the 1965 brochure.

Andreas

njtaco
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Post by njtaco » Fri May 22, 2009 2:26 pm

I received a package from the Museum yesterday! :D

Unfortunately, I have not had a chance to open it. :(

I am so looking forward to opening it!

...Just had to share that... :wink:
1965 Corsair 20' Sea-V Inboard
Research in progress...

njtaco
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For Sale

Post by njtaco » Sun Jul 19, 2009 5:46 pm

So she is now for sale...I have to weed through the site to figure out how to list her, but there will be an ad up soon. :(

No time to do right by her, so off she will go, hopefully to a loving home.

Any suggestions as to value? I hate to just throw a too-high price on her and be ignored, but I don't want to give her away, either.
1965 Corsair 20' Sea-V Inboard
Research in progress...

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Sun Jul 19, 2009 11:15 pm

Bob,

I'm sure this must be very disapointing to you. The truth is that restoring a classic can be a life changing experience. It does require an enormous time commitment that is not always a good thing, especially in this difficult economic climate.

As for value, find some that are close to what you have on www.TradingDock.Org and other websites and base your selling price accordingly.

Andres, I must have missed your previous post regarding Thompson Boat Company of New York. I did mis-quote Mr. Rodengen as to the CC purchase being a complete turnkey operation. He said nothing that implied that Thompson was manufacturing fiberglass boats prior to the purchase. He does imply, however, that Thompson had designs and methods in mind that must have influenced CC to purchase the company in order to start building fiberglass boats at their facility.

Al

njtaco
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Post by njtaco » Mon Jul 20, 2009 7:18 am

Al,

It IS a disappointment...I was hoping my Dad and I would be able to restore her together, but he is spending more time in Florida, and we are both busy in the summers when he is in NJ.

I'll look at the Trading Dock, and list her there first. I really don't want to go the ebay/craigslist route.

Thanks for everyone's help in this thread,

Bob
1965 Corsair 20' Sea-V Inboard
Research in progress...

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Paul P
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Corsair 20 Sea V

Post by Paul P » Sat Aug 01, 2009 9:28 am

Hi guys,

I don't know how I missed this thread but I have been working like a dog lately and quite preoccupied with lots of boating and business (and family) issues!

The boat is an early Corsair for sure, and it has several unique features that CC used in the early days of the 20' fiberglass hull. Looking at the photos I can see the big operable windshield is there, and that same windshield was used on a 1963 20' wood Thompson/Chris Craft that had very similar lines to the fiberglass version. That same "Sea Skiff type windshield" was carried over to the later glass Corsairs and the 80 Sea Skiff hulls like mine, eventually replaced with a more solid design of similar dimensions but with the small operable sections below the big fixed vision glass, making the assembly less prone to rack in a rolling sea when those big operable sections were open.

The steering wheel is not original of course. The big chrome inboard transmission shifting handle is a vestige of previous inboard boats from CC, and I see the Morse throttle control on the Starboard side, which was later modified to combine throttle and shifting, thereby making the big chrome lever obsolete. Personally I like the big lever that can be used to gently slip the transmission, my Skiff has the combo Morse unit. I can't tell for sure if this is an inboard or transdrive, but it looks like an inboard to me, not having read every single word of the previous postings yet, I'll assume it's an inboard, especially when I see those cast-in side air intakes that are a real signal this is an inboard. That exact same casting is used on my 1966 Sea Skiff 20' hull, but the raised edge around the fore deck is not used on the Skiff version, nor are the cast-in aft vents.

This Corsair would likely have the wood motor stringers like my 1966 Skiff. These are out of the wet zone, and they run from one hollow fiberglass abutment to another. These wood pieces routinely cracked due to poor design of the curved shape cut from a larger piece of wood that exposes the grain in a not-very-good-structural way. I heard CC actually had a retrofit for this design flaw similar to the one I used to fix mine, with form cut aluminum plate on each side through bolted with stainless steel bolts. This was later replaced in subsequent Corsair models after 1966 with the hollow box beam motor stringers like those used in the Commander series, with embedded metal plates, etc., which makes the later series Corsair Sea V quite the nice and refined boat compared to the early versions of this same hull like this one and my Skiff.

The top rail of this rare model is raised, and I have seen another early Corsair Sea V 20 like this but only one. Not many like her out there. This design was later dropped on all Corsair models and never used on the low production run of Sea Skiffs using the same basic hull casting but with slightly different upper section, bonded at the rub rail. The rear cast-in-place vents are original to this Corsair and so is the metal honeycomb inside, as that same honeycomb looking metal screen is in my 1966 vents on the intake side.

Later Corsairs shifted over to clamshell vents for intake and exhaust, and during the evolution of the Corsair hull they used potmetal intake clamshells and cast in vents like this, along with potmetal clamshells fore and aft on later models with the case in vents being common on the transdrive models. Again, all of this is due to my own research after stumbling across my 1966 #39 Sea Skiff.

Having done a total down to the glass restoration on mine, including replacement of all wood floor structure, rebuilding seat structure, side panels, sending instruments out for restoration, replacing steering assembly, etc., I can pretty much tell exactly what will be needed for the restoration of this rare boat. It will run just like mine, wanting to lay over on the chine until the wheel is turned quite tightly, as these moderate V hulls with the mini keel don't like to do the slide turns of the traditional flat aft section CC speedboats.

All said and done, this would be a great restoration for someone because you will NEVER see another one like this in a blue moon. I dare say there were not many built like it and not many left. They were not expensive boats when new, they were used at utility craft due to the layout and size, they were run hard and put away wet. I really like the lines of the boat however, and always wondered it they pulled the mold off a wood Thompson. With that hard chine, as opposed to the round bilge of all wood Chris Craft Sea Skiffs, I kind of doubt it, but maybe. :roll:

I hope someone get this boat who will take the time I did to do a fairly decent restoration, because we findd ours very rewarding to play around with, it's pretty quick with a 327F, and it always gets comments because until a few years ago these particular models were a pretty obscure little mark shadowed by many other Chris Craft models. There are a few out there being restored now and hope this is one that makes it.

Regards, cheers, hope to be driving mine in a couple hours on Old Hickory Lake, Tennessee!

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

njtaco
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Post by njtaco » Sun Aug 23, 2009 6:31 pm

Paul, thanks for chiming in! The wealth of information is astounding here.

To all,

I have decided to list her on e-bay, as I think it has the widest reach. If anyone knows a genuine enthusiast that want her, I'll work with him/her as much as I can to make a smooth, trouble-free sale possible.

The e-bay auction is number 220473694448

If there is anything inaccurate or misleading in my listing, please let me know. I want to be as up-front and honest as I can.

Thanks,

Bob
1965 Corsair 20' Sea-V Inboard
Research in progress...

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