One thing I forgot to mention in the Bristol Finish thread, and realizing this subject ought to have a thread of its own, is herewith thrown into the arena:
When brushing a finish in the vicinity of an edge, the best technique is to brush towards the edge. While this may produce a drip at the edge that must then be scavenged by brushing parallel to the edge, it is infinitely better than brushing away from the edge, which thins the finish at one side and makes a drip at the other side, due to how the bristles interact with the edge.
And another thing: Varnishing in hot weather can give problems due to how fast the mineral spirits thinner or [Interlux 333] xylene thinner evaporates. Smith & Co. makes a Slow- and Very-Slow-evaporating varnish reducer for better varnishing in hotter weather. Call 1-800-234-0330 for more information.
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UnansweredFinishing Technique
Moderators: Don Ayers, Al Benton, Don Vogt
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Steve Smith
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Paul P
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- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
- Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
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Excellent advice, brushing from the edge is a sure shot way to introduce dust particles and bubbles into your finish.
I have had great results with flatwork (such as the flat marine mahogany veneer plywood pieces around the port and starboard helm of our 38' Commander, by using a varnish specialty foam roller. Yes, "a roller", this is not a typo. One important additional item, the flatwork was removed from the boat and finished flat on some stands in the shop(actually what you see is new mahogany, cut to match the old white painted wood that came on the boat) .
I would literally pour varnish onto the work directly in long thin strands, use a brush to level everything out, and then use the roller to do the final pass to assure a uniform film build. A couple passes with the roller, and it was "hands off time". The results were (and still are) just spectacular. The finish is perfect and there isn't even a hint of orange peel.
The roller will give the impression you are frothing up a lot of bubbles, but in reality those bubbles disappear with the curing process, and what you end up with is good enough to shave with, given enough light.
Regards, Paul Pletcher
I have had great results with flatwork (such as the flat marine mahogany veneer plywood pieces around the port and starboard helm of our 38' Commander, by using a varnish specialty foam roller. Yes, "a roller", this is not a typo. One important additional item, the flatwork was removed from the boat and finished flat on some stands in the shop(actually what you see is new mahogany, cut to match the old white painted wood that came on the boat) .
I would literally pour varnish onto the work directly in long thin strands, use a brush to level everything out, and then use the roller to do the final pass to assure a uniform film build. A couple passes with the roller, and it was "hands off time". The results were (and still are) just spectacular. The finish is perfect and there isn't even a hint of orange peel.
The roller will give the impression you are frothing up a lot of bubbles, but in reality those bubbles disappear with the curing process, and what you end up with is good enough to shave with, given enough light.
Regards, Paul Pletcher
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
Paul,
I learned that edge brushing technique 50 years ago in Jr. High and have used it ever since.
"Tip & Roll", interesting process. How did you discover it? Do you thin the varnish a lot? What is a "varnish specialty roller"? Do you wet the roller with varnish before you use it on the finished piece? Will that technique work on vertical surfaces (things you can't remove and take to the finishing room)? And lastly, what brand of varnish (thinner) did you use?
I am impressed with the perfect reflection of the wheel in that pic. I would like to try it.
Al
I learned that edge brushing technique 50 years ago in Jr. High and have used it ever since.
"Tip & Roll", interesting process. How did you discover it? Do you thin the varnish a lot? What is a "varnish specialty roller"? Do you wet the roller with varnish before you use it on the finished piece? Will that technique work on vertical surfaces (things you can't remove and take to the finishing room)? And lastly, what brand of varnish (thinner) did you use?
I am impressed with the perfect reflection of the wheel in that pic. I would like to try it.
Al
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Paul P
- Posts: 622
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
- Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
- Contact:
Hi Al,
I've always had trouble with vertical surfaces because I always seem to want to put on too much of a build coat with each application. I've found the best way to get good results is to brush it on almost dry so it just won't run.
Only problem, the more brush strokes the more chance of messing something up. The varnish will want to dry, semi dry, orange peel, pick up dust, leave brush strokes, etc. Oh yes, and "discover some new species of insect too".
The flatwork is a breeze by comparison. Rather than spend all that time and energy of brushing it all out, I just poured it in long streaks across the flatwork, brushed it out somewhat to distribute it around the board, and used the roller (fresh for each application, but used from one board to another) to put down a nice uniform film.
A heavy coat will lay down nice and flat, and will gloss over like glass, but the danger is, when it cures it can wrinkle, so again, the best way is to get a nice build coat, but one that will dry all the way through fairly evenly. More thin coats are better than a couple heavy coats.
As far as brands, I've used several with good results.
Captains, Schooner 96, Epifanes, and Pettit High Build have all been used. I rarely EVER thin varnish unless I have to, and if needed then only use the recommended product by brand. I've finished entire speedboats without ever thinning ANY varnish.
The Pettit High Build puts down an awesome thick coat, but you really have to let the undercoat cure or the thick coat will take so long to cure out, it will actually soften the undercoat and you'll get the "mother of all wrinkles" in your finish. If that happens, plan on spending lots of time, because you can't even sand that out until the darn thing cures out.
I think I'll use the roller on my next speedboat project, on the hull sides. This means I'll be using a thin application, and we'll see how she goes. Naturally if the undercoats look good I'll keep on with that technique coat after coat. IF they don't look good then I'll change back to a brush. The one thing I like about the roller (and it's a specialty varnish roller sold for this very purpose) is you can put down a nice big area that will all flash out together. With a brush, by the time I get to the back of the boat, the front of the boat is curing out, and each overlap runs the risk of something happening. With the roller, you can at least roll on nice thin and uniform build coats very quickly.
Regards, Paul
(someone once told me that the best varnish work was to use a single hair badger brush, nude, under a full moon, but I have yet to put that one to the test and have no immediate plans to do so either!)
I've always had trouble with vertical surfaces because I always seem to want to put on too much of a build coat with each application. I've found the best way to get good results is to brush it on almost dry so it just won't run.
Only problem, the more brush strokes the more chance of messing something up. The varnish will want to dry, semi dry, orange peel, pick up dust, leave brush strokes, etc. Oh yes, and "discover some new species of insect too".
The flatwork is a breeze by comparison. Rather than spend all that time and energy of brushing it all out, I just poured it in long streaks across the flatwork, brushed it out somewhat to distribute it around the board, and used the roller (fresh for each application, but used from one board to another) to put down a nice uniform film.
A heavy coat will lay down nice and flat, and will gloss over like glass, but the danger is, when it cures it can wrinkle, so again, the best way is to get a nice build coat, but one that will dry all the way through fairly evenly. More thin coats are better than a couple heavy coats.
As far as brands, I've used several with good results.
Captains, Schooner 96, Epifanes, and Pettit High Build have all been used. I rarely EVER thin varnish unless I have to, and if needed then only use the recommended product by brand. I've finished entire speedboats without ever thinning ANY varnish.
The Pettit High Build puts down an awesome thick coat, but you really have to let the undercoat cure or the thick coat will take so long to cure out, it will actually soften the undercoat and you'll get the "mother of all wrinkles" in your finish. If that happens, plan on spending lots of time, because you can't even sand that out until the darn thing cures out.
I think I'll use the roller on my next speedboat project, on the hull sides. This means I'll be using a thin application, and we'll see how she goes. Naturally if the undercoats look good I'll keep on with that technique coat after coat. IF they don't look good then I'll change back to a brush. The one thing I like about the roller (and it's a specialty varnish roller sold for this very purpose) is you can put down a nice big area that will all flash out together. With a brush, by the time I get to the back of the boat, the front of the boat is curing out, and each overlap runs the risk of something happening. With the roller, you can at least roll on nice thin and uniform build coats very quickly.
Regards, Paul
(someone once told me that the best varnish work was to use a single hair badger brush, nude, under a full moon, but I have yet to put that one to the test and have no immediate plans to do so either!)
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
Paul,
Thanks for the reply. Good stuff. I've got the toe boards (or what ever they're called) from the aft deck at home to be varnished and I'm going to give it a whirl. I'll let you know how it goes. I guess it's not really "Tip & Roll". What's a good name for it? Spread & Roll?
I have thinned varnish (with appropriate product) for the initial coat over stain but have used it full strength otherwise. I used it full strength over the CPES I applied over stain this Fall (with a bristle brush).
I have to admit, I'm skeptical (I live in Missouri). I just don't know how a roller can get the varnish to lay down any smoother than a good brush can. Seeing is believing (Show Me State).
Al
Thanks for the reply. Good stuff. I've got the toe boards (or what ever they're called) from the aft deck at home to be varnished and I'm going to give it a whirl. I'll let you know how it goes. I guess it's not really "Tip & Roll". What's a good name for it? Spread & Roll?
I have thinned varnish (with appropriate product) for the initial coat over stain but have used it full strength otherwise. I used it full strength over the CPES I applied over stain this Fall (with a bristle brush).
I have to admit, I'm skeptical (I live in Missouri). I just don't know how a roller can get the varnish to lay down any smoother than a good brush can. Seeing is believing (Show Me State).
Al
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Paul P
- Posts: 622
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
- Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
- Contact:
Try it, I think you'll like it
Try it on the intermediate build coats, and if it looks good enough for a finish coat, then on one of those coats you'll eventually know when to call it quits. I never really know if it's the last coat or not, I always make the decision when I see it dry. You'll be horrified at first, when you see all the bubbles from the roller, but somehow those just vanish. Try it, I think you'll like it.
I have an extensive file on finishing (teak) toe rails on boats like the 38' Chris Craft Commander, which can be found here (also done with a roller).
http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/m ... 1126975515
When you have something good and flat like a toe rail (see photo below) then there's no reason why you can't use a roller to the fullest extent, but be careful NOT to put down too much, that is the big issue you MUST avoid, because it WILL wrinkle. The voice of experience. (The two photos below were from the June edition of Motor Boating Magazine, our 1966 38 Chris Craft Commander, "TRADITION").
Regards, Paul
I have an extensive file on finishing (teak) toe rails on boats like the 38' Chris Craft Commander, which can be found here (also done with a roller).
http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/m ... 1126975515
When you have something good and flat like a toe rail (see photo below) then there's no reason why you can't use a roller to the fullest extent, but be careful NOT to put down too much, that is the big issue you MUST avoid, because it WILL wrinkle. The voice of experience. (The two photos below were from the June edition of Motor Boating Magazine, our 1966 38 Chris Craft Commander, "TRADITION").
Regards, Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
Paul,
She's a beautiful lady. The bright teak toe rail really looks great. I would have never believed that varnish would hold up that well on teak. Great report.
I wonder if penetrating epoxy (CPES) would do well on teak after it's washed down with acetone (or without removing the oils). CPES is a great primer for varnish.
Al
She's a beautiful lady. The bright teak toe rail really looks great. I would have never believed that varnish would hold up that well on teak. Great report.
I wonder if penetrating epoxy (CPES) would do well on teak after it's washed down with acetone (or without removing the oils). CPES is a great primer for varnish.
Al
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Paul P
- Posts: 622
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
- Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
- Contact:
Hi Al,Al Benton wrote:Paul,
She's a beautiful lady. The bright teak toe rail really looks great. I would have never believed that varnish would hold up that well on teak. Great report.
I wonder if penetrating epoxy (CPES) would do well on teak after it's washed down with acetone (or without removing the oils). CPES is a great primer for varnish.
Al
Firstly, I wouldn't waste my time with all the other work, without getting the oil out of the teak first. I think it would be a waste of time. The acetone is "hot" and you need special anti-solvent gloves, but it will get the natural oil in teak out nicely, and then the dilluted varnish first coat can really grip well.
My boat is kept in a covered slip, and it doesn't get much sunlight, and therefore my "system" works better for me than a boat that is out in the weather all the time. I think I've topcoated once in 7 years.
When I refinished the toe rail all the way down to the wood, having to repair some of it, replace some of it, etc., I had to first grind down through some sort of an epoxy sort of finish. Based on my difficulty, I would never use anything but varnish.
Regards, Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
Paul,
I understand. I would be skeptical as well, and actually was for a while. My first experience with CPES was for a floor replacement project in a fiberglass boat (Glasspar Club Lido). There were no concerns about removing epoxy or the other resins used on the project because it's all under the floor and no one will ever see it again. So who cares if it can ever be removed? Its purpose was to restore old wood runners rather than replacing them. It worked well for that.
I used some of it to restore an old wood deck by the pond in the back yard with no concern of removing the stuff. It worked great for that too.
Later, Steve Smith (CPES inventor) talked about using it as a prime coat for varnish and outlined a couple of methods of applying it before and/or after staining the wood. Still skeptical, I tried some applications on some old mahogany I scrapped off a Chris Craft just before being bull dozed (rotten shame).
The short story is that CPES sands off as easily as varnish. It's not like a West System product that builds a thick plate of epoxy on the surface. Most of it penetrates into the wood, not leaving a noticeable layer of epoxy on the wood at all. It's very thin, runs like alcohol.
I have been using it over stain on my CCC with great results, now that I know the stain must cure completely before applying. You may have read in another thread that I messed up a section by putting it on fresh, un-cured stain. That area will sand off nicely next spring and will be done correctly. I've already tried it on my old mahogany samples I did about 4 years ago and had no problem exposing bare wood on the CPES treated wood.
I'm not suggesting that you use it. It sounds and looks like your application system works very well on teak wood. I don't have teak on any of my boats but that's not to say I won't in the future. I'm just curious if it will work well on teak as it seems to on mahogany.
Al
I understand. I would be skeptical as well, and actually was for a while. My first experience with CPES was for a floor replacement project in a fiberglass boat (Glasspar Club Lido). There were no concerns about removing epoxy or the other resins used on the project because it's all under the floor and no one will ever see it again. So who cares if it can ever be removed? Its purpose was to restore old wood runners rather than replacing them. It worked well for that.
I used some of it to restore an old wood deck by the pond in the back yard with no concern of removing the stuff. It worked great for that too.
Later, Steve Smith (CPES inventor) talked about using it as a prime coat for varnish and outlined a couple of methods of applying it before and/or after staining the wood. Still skeptical, I tried some applications on some old mahogany I scrapped off a Chris Craft just before being bull dozed (rotten shame).
The short story is that CPES sands off as easily as varnish. It's not like a West System product that builds a thick plate of epoxy on the surface. Most of it penetrates into the wood, not leaving a noticeable layer of epoxy on the wood at all. It's very thin, runs like alcohol.
I have been using it over stain on my CCC with great results, now that I know the stain must cure completely before applying. You may have read in another thread that I messed up a section by putting it on fresh, un-cured stain. That area will sand off nicely next spring and will be done correctly. I've already tried it on my old mahogany samples I did about 4 years ago and had no problem exposing bare wood on the CPES treated wood.
I'm not suggesting that you use it. It sounds and looks like your application system works very well on teak wood. I don't have teak on any of my boats but that's not to say I won't in the future. I'm just curious if it will work well on teak as it seems to on mahogany.
Al
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Paul P
- Posts: 622
- Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
- Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
- Contact:
Hello Al,
Thank you kindly, for taking the time to outline the tips. I'll keep the product in mind, as I am sure I will have a use for it sooner or later, as I love old boats!
Just as a point of informationm, here's a link that further outlines my observations about teak, I think you'll probably agree. Be patient, turn up your speakers!
http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/m ... 157664700/
Regards, Paul
Thank you kindly, for taking the time to outline the tips. I'll keep the product in mind, as I am sure I will have a use for it sooner or later, as I love old boats!
Just as a point of informationm, here's a link that further outlines my observations about teak, I think you'll probably agree. Be patient, turn up your speakers!
http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/m ... 157664700/
Regards, Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)
So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!
As I have told you all I decided to do mahogany planks on my cabin roof rather than canvas and plywood. I have them on and have put on 2 coats of varnish with a roller. The bubbles dissapear within minutes and I am very impressed with the results so far. I am thinking one or two more coats is all it will need.Then I will caulk with mahogany colored 5200. Here are some pics let me know what you think.
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