Riviera KBL Engine Oil Pressure Gage Connection

[Riviera Wish]

Have read that the oil pressure gage connection is "below the ignition coil". Attached pictures show what I have; no opening for oil gage hook-up. Am I missing something?
What exists at that location on this engine is a 1/8" male to female pipe connector coming out of the engine block, into a 90 degree 1/8" male pipe to 3/8" copper tube compression fitting. Copper tube goes to the oil cooler.
Where / how does the oil pressure gage hook-up to the KBL engine?

[jnbailey71]

I don't have a KBL, I have a K but my connection there below the coil is a T connection and the oil pressure gauge connects to the other side of the T. I don't see why it would be any different for a KBL.

[Riviera Wish]

Thanks Josh. That resolves my problem. Just need to find the correct fittings.
Steve

[jim g]

You need to find a complete set of original oil cooler lines. The originals are 7/16 thin wall. The 3/8 tubing you have is probably thick wall for easy bending which means you have around a 1/4 inch hole for the oil to follow through. With this tubing that you have you have reduced oil flow through the engine. If you can't fine good used one then new ones should be made out of 1/2 inch tubing.

[Riviera Wish]

Thanks Jim. Seems like it might be easier to make the 1/2" copper cooling lines than to find a used set. No? Will any K engine cooling lines work? Can you recommend any potential sources for used cooling lines?
Follow on question: Is the oil pressure gage line made up of 1/4" soft copper with compression fittings?

[jim g]

Because the bends are fairly sharp if you can find good used ones it will take you less time. If you do find some you want all the fittings that go in the block and cooler with them. Chris Craft used several different styles of fittings and there not anything thats available today. If you end up making yours make sure you get the thicker wall bendable tubing. It doesn't kink as easy as the thinner wall does.

Yes, any set of a K series engine will work.

The copper tubing from the engine to the pressure gauge is 1/4 inch outside copper tubing. Years ago it use to be measured by inside dia. which would be 1/8 inch tubing. Make sure you get refrigeration tubing as it is thicker wall.

[Riviera Wish]

Thanks again Jim.
Steve

[Riviera Wish]

Subsequent to the last post I read that only a portion of the oil pump output goes to the oil cooler. the majority goes to the engine bearings, etc. In addition the old circa 1950 oils contained a paraffin / wax which required cooling to prevent foaming. Modern day oils do not contain the wax and are not as affected by the higher engine temperatures.
All of the above,if true, would preclude the need for larger oil cooler lines. In fact the forum I read indicates a better solution would be to install an oil filter in the place of the oil cooler.
Comments would be appreciated.

[davidvn]

No all the oil goes through the oil cooler.
If the engine was assembled properly there is a pipe plug under the oil pump which directs the flow of oil out to the side of the engine then through the oil cooler and then back into the main oil galley.

[jim g]

No all the oil goes through the oil cooler.
If the engine was assembled properly there is a pipe plug under the oil pump which directs the flow of oil out to the side of the engine then through the oil cooler and then back into the main oil galley.

David is right. I posted the same thing in another thread.

[Riviera Wish]

OK. At the risk of 'beating a dead horse' let me ask one more related question. The fitting that threads into the engine block (shown in the initial photo of this thread) is a 1/8'" pipe fitting. Seams like the volume flow of oil would be largely dictated by this constriction in the line and larger copper tubing would not do much to increase the overall flow. No?

[cc-woodboats]

The oil passage in the block is tapped for 1/4 in pipe.
looks like someone used a reducer in the block to match the 1/8 in elbow.

I would plumb the oil lines to the cooler with 1/2 in copper tubing or hose.
you can also add a full flow filter in that oil circuit.

[jim g]

The oil passage in the block is tapped for 1/4 in pipe.
looks like someone used a reducer in the block to match the 1/8 in elbow.

I would plumb the oil lines to the cooler with 1/2 in copper tubing or hose.
you can also add a full flow filter in that oil circuit.

The prewar blocks were tapped with a 1/8 inch pipe thread. Most of the prewar K's did not have an oil cooler. All the post war blocks were tapped with a 1/4 inch pipe thread.

[Riviera Wish]

Thank you for your responses. Based on the engine serial number it is post 1952. I will check to see if there is a 1/4" pipe connection in the block and report back. This was advertised as a "rebuilt" engine but the qualifications of the builder are becoming suspect.
Thanks again for all your helpful comments.

[jim g]

You can't always go by the engine number stamped on the plate. Because over the years a lot of these engines were repaired with what ever was laying around. I really doubt its a prewar block. But I've seen stranger stuff on these engines over the years.

Look on the boss right below the head and above the water jacket plate that is above the oil cooler line in your picture. There should be some letters stamped in there. It should say QXC, QXD or QXLD.

There are a lot of people out there that can rebuild these engines but only a handful that know how to redo them correctly form top to bottom and end to end. That why you will get a broad range of estimates when you go looking for someone to rebuild it.

[Riviera Wish]

Hey Jim. The "boss" that you mentioned reads as follows:
QXC 5M
707943

The oil passage in the block is tapped for a 1/8" pipe thread (although sloppy) and NOT for 1/4" pipe.
Can you tell me what all this means?
Appreciate any input that might have that will clarify what vintage engine I have, and how the oil is distributed internally, etc.

[jim g]

At least your block is a prewar block. QXC is prewar. QXD is post war and QXLD is post war long stroke. The long stroke block would be for any engine that has a L in the chris craft description. KL, KBL etc. QXD is a regular K engine.

The prewar blocks are a 3 and 3/8 inch bore and the post war blocks are 3 and 7/16 inch bore.

There are no prewar long stroke engines.

I've seen quite a few prewar K's that did not come with an oil cooler. So to add the oil cooler correctly the engine needs to come apart.

The oil flow without the cooler starts with the pump sucking the oil from of the pan into the oil pump and out the top of the oil pump and into the block. Which is feeding oil to all the oil galleys. Cam bearings and main bearings. Rod bearings are feed through the holes in the crankshaft. The oil bleeds out from around all the bearings and falls back into the oil pan. The spot in the center of your block were your oil cooler is hooked up is a hole that has been drilled and tapped for your oil pressure gauge line. If you look both ways left and right you will see other plugs on the same plane equally spaced apart. This is were the oil passage holes to the bearings were drilled to intersect the main oil galley tube when the block was made.

The engines with oil coolers are plumb different. The oil pump sucks oil from the pan and into the pump. From the pump it goes out the bottom of the oil pump through a copper tube to a fitting on the inside of the block. From there it pass through the block and another fitting and into a copper tube that is right behind the starter. From there it goes through the oil cooler out of the oil cooler through a copper pipe and another fitting into the main oil galley. This is the T fitting that has the small end for the oil pressure gauge. From there it goes through the rest of the engine as describe above.

To add a oil cooler to a engine that never had one. You have to tap and plug the oil passage hole right above were the oil pump mounts. You then have to drill through the block right behind the starter and tap both sides for the copper pipe fittings. You also have to drill the tapped hole on the side of the block under the coil out a retap to a bigger size.

The post war oil pumps are also a bigger capacity pump.

[Riviera Wish]

OK Jim. What I have is an engine advertised as a "rebuilt KBL". The exhaust manifold indicates a KBL engine No. 6502.
Is it possible the a prewar block was converted to a post war long stroke engine? That is by re-plumbing the inside and increasing the bore, etc.? The block is tapped for the oil line at the rear of the starter.
The engine is fitted with 3 downdraft carbs, oil cooler, exhaust manifold, etc. and 'looks the part' of a KBL.
If I was sold this unit as a "rebuilt KBL" was I defrauded?

[jim g]

OK Jim. What I have is an engine advertised as a "rebuilt KBL". The exhaust manifold indicates a KBL engine No. 6502.
Is it possible the a prewar block was converted to a post war long stroke engine? That is by re-plumbing the inside and increasing the bore, etc.? The block is tapped for the oil line at the rear of the starter.
The engine is fitted with 3 downdraft carbs, oil cooler, exhaust manifold, etc. and 'looks the part' of a KBL.
If I was sold this unit as a "rebuilt KBL" was I defrauded?

Are you sure the engine number is 6502. The post war engine number are usually 5 digit numbers. A 4 digit engine number would indicate a prewar engine. There was the KB engine prewar. Which is the same as the post war engine but it did not use the long stroke crank and the carbs a slightly different. But unless you know what to look for on the carbs you can't really tell. There are usually some casting dates casted on the engine parts. There might be one on the side of the exhaust manifold. One on the top of the head. The front mount plate between the starter and generator. Bottom of the oil pan.

Can you post some pictures of the engine. Especially the top of the carb's and the top of the head?

Possible yes. Would I use a prewar block for a customers long stroke engine. No. It would have to be bored out to use the long stroke pistons. I would not recommend that as the cylinder wall would be thin. Even if the bore was sleeved it would still end up with cylinder walls thinner then they should be. Will this cause a problem later on. Its hard to say. It would really depend on the shape of the cylinder walls inside the cooling chamber.

I have corrected the oil cooler systems that were not installed correctly on several prewar engines.

I have used post war QXD blocks for long stroke QXLD engines.

As for the defrauded part. I can't answer that question. From the outside it sounds like you have all the correct KBL parts. You can take the oil access plate off the side of the oil pan and look to see if you have the long stroke counterweighted crank. You could also possibly see with a mirror if you have the correct camshaft. As for the pistons and cylinder walls. You would have to pull the head to see.

[Riviera Wish]

You are correct Jim, the KBL Engine No. is 65002. I dropped a digit in my earlier post.
Attached are some photos of the areas you suggested plus a couple.
It appears that the exhaust manifold, carbs, and oil cooler are KBL parts mounted on a prewar (short stroke) engine.
Need to get a KBL engine for my project. Can you provide your phone number to my email address ([email protected]) so that
we can expedite the conversation?