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Water FLow through KLC

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Geoff Cunningham
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Water FLow through KLC

Post by Geoff Cunningham » Sun May 18, 2014 3:10 am

Firstly, I did search the archives as I can't be the first CC owner to have this issue, however I couldn't find a specific response to my woes (possibly user error!!)

I am nearing completion of an 18 month restoration of my 55 Capri (total restoration of the hull and deck) and I did the first water test last week. I started the engine on land before launching and there was a small amount of rust scale exhausted (as expected). Once in the water, the KLC turned over and idled beautifully, however the engine temperature rose quickly.

We cut the engine and took the lid off the oil cooler and there was plenty of water in there. Next I took off one end of the rear water hose that feeds from the oil cooler into the block. When I started the engine, water flowed freely. I reconnected and then disconnected the top water hose (at the front top of the engine) and it was dry as a bone.

Having not been started for 18 months and being empty, I ran the engine a little longer (20 seconds) to see if any water passed through the system - It didn't. No water was expelled via the exhaust (or anywhere else).

Issue 1 - Once home, I took all the water pipes off completely and there are no blockages. I ran a garden hose (low pressure) into the top inlet flange and water flowed out the rear of the block. Does anyone have any ideas on "things I can try" before committing to removing the head??

Issue 2 - I then took the top connection flange off the block (picture attached) and there were no blockages. There is however a 'loose' metal wire visible through the hole. I tugged at it with pliers but it seems to be fastened. Does anyone have any idea what this is?

Issue 3 - When I took the oiler cooler out, the top and bottom junctions were sealed with a mastic - no gasket. Is there meant to be a rubber O Ring or a gasket top and bottom? Or is mastic the approved sealant method?

Issue 4 - Whilst it is dismantled, I wanted to clean up the oil cooler - can anyone tell me how to separate the perforated strainers (picture attached)?

Thanks in advance - keen to get the old girl going as it has been a long time between rides and the Minister for War and Finance (the Wife) is questioning the investment to date. We all know how dangerous this can become.
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Geoff Cunningham
Woodie enthusiast in Australia.

Current boat:
1955 Chris Craft Capri 19ft

cc-woodboats
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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by cc-woodboats » Sun May 18, 2014 5:14 am

Hi Goff,
seems like you may have a blockage in the exhaust manifold water passages.
the oil cooler is a series of tubes soldered to a brass plate at each end. you can't disassemble it any more than pictured. take a stiff copper wire and clean out all the tubes.should be able to see light thru all the tubes when done.the top and bottom gaskets are a flat gasket paper about ...1/16 inch thick and 1/8" wide. very narrow rings.
if you have good water flow from the cooler I would suspect the water passages in the exhaust manifold are blocked with rust or other junk. pull the manifold and check the water passages between the manifold and block.
the wire you found in the head is left over from the core sand when the head was cast,should not be an issue.

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Geoff Cunningham
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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by Geoff Cunningham » Sun May 18, 2014 5:33 am

cc-woodboats.

Thanks for your prompt response. Apologies for my further enquiry. If the exhaust manifold was blocked, surely the water would be getting from the intake at the rear end of the block up to the exit point on the top/front of the block before it enters the exhaust manifold (or am I mistaking terminology??)

Thanks also for the clarity on the wire, gaskets and oil cooler
Geoff Cunningham
Woodie enthusiast in Australia.

Current boat:
1955 Chris Craft Capri 19ft

jim g
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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jim g » Sun May 18, 2014 8:09 pm

Water flow.

Water enters pump. Exits pump and enters oil cooler. Exits oil cooler and enters at bottom of exhaust manifold. Hose connects to pipe fitting under neath back of manifold. Water flows through 3 sides of the exhaust manifold and enters block from manifold. Water flows through block and exits out the fitting at the front of the head and enters at the front of the exhaust manifold. Water travels down the top chamber { 4th side of manifold } of exhaust manifold and enters exhaust pipe through exhaust elbow. There might be some copper tubing that flows water from front of exhaust manifold to the intake right above carb and out to exhaust elbow. This just warms the intake.

Couple of things. I rarely see stopped up manifolds. Its mainly salt water ones that stop up. If the block was dry and you have a gear pump. The pump is probably worn to where it won't prime itself. If its an impeller pump install a new impeller. Impellers don't like sitting for a long time. Impellers should be replaced every year. You can prime the system by pulling the hose between the pump and oil cooler and using a garden hose fill up the block with water. Run engine and see if it pumps water.

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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by srlittin » Sun May 18, 2014 8:51 pm

Geoff, Jim and others
I had a very similar problem with a M engine last week, ran the engine with a hose at home, no problems but when in the water, no engine cooling. Loosened the clamp bolt on the oil cooler, fired the engine and water was flowing, tightened it again, but no water flow out the exhaust.
Loosened the pump intake, plenty of water, removed the top outlet and filled the cylinder block to allow more running time. No change.
Finally removed the end cover of the waterpump to find that the rubber impellor had sheared from the boss. Shaft was turning but not the impellor. If you have a gear pump, may have sheared the drive key. Water flow from the above test was backwards from the exhaust pressurizing the water in the block.
Fitted a new pump and we were cool again. I guess the garden hose is enough to allow water flow past the impellor.
You may have a similar issue.
Good luck in finding the answer.
Steve

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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jfrprops » Sun May 18, 2014 8:56 pm

yep, this is a pump issue and that always points first to impeller.

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by farupp » Mon May 19, 2014 6:42 am

I have destroyed several rubber impellers as a result of using a garden hose for a water source, despite numerous warnings on this site about not to do that. Now I run a hose into a five gallon water bucket full of water and let the pump suck the water up and into the engine. I keep the bucket full by running water from the garden hose into the bucket.
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jfrprops » Mon May 19, 2014 7:51 am

yes, that is very important..I have learned the hard way myself......water hose pressure can do multiple bad things in the engine and pump....let is suck out of the replenishing bucket....always.

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Geoff Cunningham
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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by Geoff Cunningham » Mon May 19, 2014 4:43 pm

Guys

Thanks for your responses.

The engine has a brass geared Sherwood pump that I refurbished and re- greased just recently. I tested the pump using a drill to turn the drive shaft (slowly) and it pumped.

At the first water the pump was getting water past the oil cooler and into the bottom end of the exhaust manifold - but no further.

Could it be the pump isn't generating enough pressure?
Geoff Cunningham
Woodie enthusiast in Australia.

Current boat:
1955 Chris Craft Capri 19ft

jfrprops
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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jfrprops » Mon May 19, 2014 5:30 pm

Now that sounds like we are reverting back to bad manifold.....which is very possible....here on the Chesapeake Bay in Virginia you are pushing your luck to try to get 5 years out of $1,000 plus manifolds....salt water is the killer....

???
more info.....more test....keep at it and send info.

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jim g » Mon May 19, 2014 6:56 pm

[quote="Geoff Cunningham"

Could it be the pump isn't generating enough pressure?[/quote]


Yes. On the gear pumps the gears wear on the edges and the sides of the housing wear. If there is more then 4 to 5 thousandths of clearance between the gears and housing then you are starting to lose pressure.

I have the pumps rebuilt using new oversized gears because the gear housing is usually out of round and worn. So the housings can be cleaned up and sized to the new oversized gears bringing the pump back to new specs.

On your first post in issue 1. When you say water ran out the rear of the block. Do you mean the bottom of the exhaust manifold? If you ran water with a hose from the front of the head and water came out the bottom of the manifold then your manifold is not blocked.

A good pump will push water through a lot of blockages. Recently I had a chris craft flywheel forward 283 that was running hot on one side. It had about a quarter less flow then the other side and the water was putting off steam. I pulled the manifold and hooked a hose to where water from the head enters the manifold and then exits into the exhaust at the other end. With 60 psi city water pressure it would not push water through. I removed the rear plates and emptied a little more then a pint bucket of rust flakes. It filled up the water chamber about half the length of the manifold. The point of the story is 60 psi water pressure is a lot and water would not flow through it. But yet the pump would push the water through. This gives you some idea of how much pressure these pumps should put it out and as the clearance between the gears and housing increases your output pressure decreases.

Hope this make sense.

jfrprops
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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jfrprops » Mon May 19, 2014 8:28 pm

I would be scared to put that much pressure on .....could back up into bad places.....

This is an odd sounding problem though...many folks have commented and covered most of the options????

keep at it.

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jim g » Mon May 19, 2014 8:42 pm

jfrprops wrote:I would be scared to put that much pressure on .....could back up into bad places.....

This is an odd sounding problem though...many folks have commented and covered most of the options????

keep at it.

John in Va.
Your water pump puts out much more pressure then city water pressure does. The difference is most people turn on the hose before cranking the engine. Thats when you can have a problem. If you hook a hose up to the engine you start the engine then turn the water supply on. I use a special cup that hooks to the intake scoop and then the hose connects to it. So if the engine stalls or you turn the water on before starting the engine the water just comes out around the cup where it goes against the hull. You should never hook the hose directly to the engine. Also its rare to fill gas engine cylinders with water from using a hose. Now on diesel engines its very prone to happening.

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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jfrprops » Mon May 19, 2014 9:30 pm

yes, Jim, I am with you on all of that....but most folks don't know the sequence and get water in bad places.

Also I am no fan of the "cup deal" we called those a "fake a lake" and it is hard to keep them on the intake without some modifications etc etc.

Better by far I think to suck water from a bucket being replenished by that hose.

This is a process folks need to be smart about and learn about.

As to diesel...whoa...that IS TROUBLE....

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jim g » Mon May 19, 2014 10:25 pm

The fake a lakes I use have a wire that hooks on to the intake scoop and holds it up against the hull and the hose attachment is molded to the cup. I hook it on with a 6 foot hose with a valve on it. I'm able to move the boat around since the fake a lake does not use a pole to hold it up.

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mfine
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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by mfine » Tue May 20, 2014 7:26 am

I would debug this problem sequentially. Remove the water outlet from the pump. See if the pump can self prime and pump out water. If yes; connect it back up and disconnect the oil cooler outlet. Still have water flow? If so, connect it to the manifold and unhook the manifold exit hose. Do you have good flow through the manifold? If so, move on to the next connection.

If you pre-loosen the hoses, it shouldn't take very long to go through the entire system and pin down exactly where the failure is.

As for fake a lakes and buckets, I have learned from experience that a pump can self prime from either one yet still fail to prime when the boat is in the water. Float the boat to test the pump and cooling system. Use the bucket or fake a lake for other on shore running and debugging work. Personally, I much prefer the bucket because I can easily see the flow rate into the engine and I can dump in antifreeze at the end of the season.

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Re: Water FLow through KLC

Post by jim g » Tue May 20, 2014 6:43 pm

If the gear pump has a lot of wear it will still self prime but can't build enough pressure to push the water all the way through the engine.

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