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KFL Engine Oil

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John Cederstrom
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KFL Engine Oil

Post by John Cederstrom » Fri Aug 16, 2013 5:34 am

I have a friend that just purchased his first Chris Craft woodie (good candidate for a new member) who wants to change the oil before labor day and is looking for an oil recommendation. It's a 1957 Sportsman with KFL engine rebuilt in 2002, put in use in 2006 with about 50 hours since rebuild. Boat will be used in fresh water at a temperature range of 55 to 70 degrees. The oil that has been used is Brad Penn, grade 1 SAE 40 racing oil. Should he continue using this oil? If not, what more readily available oil would be recommended? Is a synthetic a preferred option?
John

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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by charlesquimby » Fri Aug 16, 2013 11:40 am

I'm just going to throw this out for comment: With the engine and reverse gear an integral unit sharing the lubrication, it is not a good idea to use detergent oil because its nature is to scrub engine internals and without a micro-filtration system, particles are carried eventually to the reverse gear thrust bearing. Ball (or roller) bearings do not have the clearance to operate properly in grit, no matter how fine. Since the rest of the engine bearing system is soft-metal plain bearings, miniscule particles become embedded in the material without ill-effect. Synthetic oils are probably not the best for a reverse gear because of increased anti-friction properties that may cause band slippage. Depending on fresh rod and main clearances in a fresh rebuild, I'd say a good grade of SAE 30 non-detergent will give good results. Remember, and this is important: Today's motor oils for the most part have been stripped of zinc additive which is crucial for flat tappet cam systems. Zinc additives can be purchased and mixed with the crankcase oil to reduce the chance of camshaft lobe wiping. I' sure there are some differing opinions out there; that's why we participate in Boat Buzz...CQ

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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by mfine » Fri Aug 16, 2013 8:49 pm

A few things I would consider.

If there is no modern spin on filter, avoid detergent oil.

If the transmission shares the oil, avoid synthetic.

For older engines with flat tappets, you need an oil with more zinc (ZDDP) than modern catalytic converter safe oils. Brad Penn is one of the suppliers that has products with the correct ammount of zinc. You can also get zinc additives for modern oil.

ballison41
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by ballison41 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 1:30 am

Very interested in this topic guys....anyone have any particular brands that they can suggest that are available at the usual big box auto parts stores? Also, this might be a dumb question, but how the heck do you know if the oil is a detergent type as opposed to non-detergent?

I did as much searching through this forum on this topic a while ago and then marched up to the local auto parts store with a list of oils in the hope I would find one of them. Needless to say I couldn't find a single one and ended up coming home with Castrol GTX High Mileage SAE 10w-30. Have I done something horrible here?
1939 15.5' Deluxe Runabout
1957 17' Sportsman

Theurkauf
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by Theurkauf » Sat Aug 17, 2013 6:03 am

I recently asked Dave Van Ness (Van Ness Engineering) this vey question and he suggested Shell Rotella, straight 30 weight. I was asking about a model B, but I believe the correct oil weight is usually stamped on the engine ID tag.

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Captain Nemo
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by Captain Nemo » Sat Aug 17, 2013 7:41 am

mfine wrote:A few things I would consider.

If there is no modern spin on filter, avoid detergent oil.

If the transmission shares the oil, avoid synthetic.

For older engines with flat tappets, you need an oil with more zinc (ZDDP) than modern catalytic converter safe oils. Brad Penn is one of the suppliers that has products with the correct ammount of zinc. You can also get zinc additives for modern oil.

Ditto. I have been using NAPA 30wt. non-detergent w/ a little Marvel Mystery Oil. I haven't looked into a zinc additive but, sounds like a good idea.
Boats are to be made of wood, otherwise, God would have grown fiberglass trees.

ballison41
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by ballison41 » Sat Aug 17, 2013 8:00 am

Read somewhere that "Delo 400 - 30W" was a good option. Can anyone concur on this. Rotella 30W is not the easiest thing to find. I can see plenty of Rotella 15w-40 but not so much the former.
1939 15.5' Deluxe Runabout
1957 17' Sportsman

charlesquimby
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by charlesquimby » Sat Aug 17, 2013 9:03 am

Rotella has changed somewhat, and no longer contains enough ZDDP to be effective. Any motor oil that is API-designated SN/SM does not contain ZDDP because these oils are formulated to meet current automobile emissions requirements, and these oils are mostly what is found on retail shelves these days. I got a lot of info on this subject by checking street rodding sites such as HAMB. I use Amsoil Z-rod 10-30 in my 426 Wedge and 390 Cad marine engines. Both are with Velvet Drive, so I went synthetic in both engines. My Cal Connell FWF, however, shares the oil system. I run straight 20 ND in it with Lucas ZDDP even though it has a roller cam. Google-up ZDDP to read about its value in older engines; there is a lot of info out there as well on the API site. CQ

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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by tkhersom » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:11 am

Theurkauf wrote:I recently asked Dave Van Ness (Van Ness Engineering) this vey question and he suggested Shell Rotella, straight 30 weight. I was asking about a model B, but I believe the correct oil weight is usually stamped on the engine ID tag.
I was not sure if I could name names, but since you already did I also spoke with Dave a bit ago and asked about our MCL that has run on detergent oil for decades. The impression I got was that it is OK to run a detergent oil if you start using it right after a rebuild, but if you have used non-detergent for years DON'T CHANGE.

Non-detergent oils are often labled "Compressor Oil". (for air compressors)
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

Theurkauf
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by Theurkauf » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:03 am

The detergent issue has puzzled me. The Chris Craft 4 and 6 Cylinder Operators Manuel I have states: "We recommend the use of SAE #30 lubricating oil containing detergents and additives conforming to API "MS" or DG..." These engines did not have oil filters. My understanding is that detergent oils were introduced in the early 50s, and it looks like that's when Chris Craft started to recommend them. Dave's advise seems to clarify the issue. I assume that his warning about switching from non-detergent to detergent oil comes from the possibility of freeing up deposits that would do very bad things. This may have been a common problem when the new oils were first introduced, and contributed to the common "no detergent" warning. Original and rebuilt engines that have always run on detergent oil are a different story. Your MCL probably always ran on detergent oil, and seems to prove the point.

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tkhersom
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by tkhersom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:39 am

Very good information.

I did not know when the detergent oils were introduced. The MCL is in a '57 Continental with no filter and sharing oil with the transmission.

I suspect that you are correct and this engine has always had detergent oil.

As I understand it you are also correct in the idea that detergent oil after non-detergent oil will free up particals that will do damage.

I am now looking for 30W oil with ZDDP. That sounds like a good idea. I see that Brad Penn sells it but it is labled as "Break In Oil". I have sent them an e-mail asking if they sell a 30W ZDDP oil that is not for Break In. Not sure if I should even be concerned about that. mfine any oppinion on this?

PS: If you can read it, here is the oil recommendation out of the manual I have.
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Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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tkhersom
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by tkhersom » Mon Aug 19, 2013 10:41 am

Got a call from Ken at Brad Penn this morning.

He was very helpful and explained to me that the product number I am looking for is 7139. A 30W running oil. He does not recommend using the "Break In Oil" as a running oil.

I think I will order a couple of cases and change over all my boats. (exept the 2 stroke outboard of course) :mrgreen:
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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mfine
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by mfine » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:45 pm

If I wasn't married I would order a few 55 gallon drums of the stuff and be stocked for a few decades.

I never think ahead enough to order but when I can't find enough BP in stock, I just pull out the phone and lookup the zinc levels of the oil they do have and then use an additive. You don't want too much zinc either so I only buy something where I can find the ZDDP level in a RECENT publication of some sort. Then you do the math, depending on the additive you select to get to where you want to be. I should plan ahead and order brad penn by the case, but standing in the oils section of the local auto parts stores staring at small print spec sheets on a tiny phone screen is a great way to use up daylight hours so that your last minute oil change has to be done at night.

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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by jim g » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:30 pm

tkhersom wrote:Got a call from Ken at Brad Penn this morning.

He was very helpful and explained to me that the product number I am looking for is 7139. A 30W running oil. He does not recommend using the "Break In Oil" as a running oil.

I think I will order a couple of cases and change over all my boats. (exept the 2 stroke outboard of course) :mrgreen:
I've been putting brad penn in my customers boats for about 6 years now. There oil is a modern version of the old kendall gt1. Its the one most of the old racers refer to as the green oil. Brad Penn actually owns the old kendall refinery. Look at the address on the bottle. A lot of times you can find it at local oil distributing companies.

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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by Theurkauf » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:20 am

I ordered a case of Brad Penn009-7139 from Amazon yesterday and it will arrive tomorrow. Price seemed pretty reasonable, but I didn't shop around that much and there are several on-line vendors.

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tkhersom
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by tkhersom » Tue Aug 20, 2013 5:44 am

Thanks!

I looked around some and Amazon seemed like the best source. Even qualified for "Super Saver" free shipping. :D
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

ballison41
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by ballison41 » Wed Aug 21, 2013 2:30 am

TK, did Ken from Brad Penn tell you what the zinc levels were in the 7139 by any chance? or does anyone else know what they are out of curiosity?

When this thread was half as long as it is now I ran out and bought a couple of gallons of Shell Rotella T 10-30. I then tried to dig up some info online to ascertain the zinc ppm to figure out if I needed to add something but could not find anything. I haven't got around to changing the oil yet so I am going to go ahead and order a case of the Brad Penn from amazon and take the Rotella back to the auto parts store tomorrow.
1939 15.5' Deluxe Runabout
1957 17' Sportsman

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tkhersom
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by tkhersom » Wed Aug 21, 2013 4:50 am

They claim 1500 ppm.

Here is a link to their web site that explains it.

http://www.penngrade1.com/Zinc.aspx

Troy
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

Tom Gruenauer
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by Tom Gruenauer » Wed Aug 21, 2013 1:31 pm

Valvoline VR1 racing oil 30 W Is what
I run in my old V8 powered ski boat.

http://www.valvoline.com/faqs/motor-oil/racing-oil/

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tkhersom
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by tkhersom » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:58 am

Hi Guys:

Just a little follow up here.

Changed two boats over to Brad Penn this fall, but more improtantly I have been using my Amazon Rewards card for business purchases (as a sole proprietor I can do that) since my last posting and was able to order another case of Brad Penn this morning just using the points I have accumulated. :D

Oil: 0 dollars

Boating in a Chris Craft: Priceless
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

wloving
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by wloving » Sun Feb 01, 2015 10:29 am

Just as an FYI - I like ordering from Amazon, but DSM Graveyard has the Brad Penn SAE 30 Part# 7139 oil for $7.50 per quart versus $11.00 per quart on Amazon.

Web site is: www.thedsmgraveyard.com. They also have more of it in stock. I don't work for them, just found them on a google search.

Will
1956 Chris Craft Sedan Cruiser with MCL

jim g
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by jim g » Sun Feb 01, 2015 11:12 am

wloving wrote:Just as an FYI - I like ordering from Amazon, but DSM Graveyard has the Brad Penn SAE 30 Part# 7139 oil for $7.50 per quart versus $11.00 per quart on Amazon.

Web site is: http://www.thedsmgraveyard.com. They also have more of it in stock. I don't work for them, just found them on a google search.

Will
1956 Chris Craft Sedan Cruiser with MCL
Not sure how your buying it from Amazon. But I just checked and its 78.14 a case for 30 weight and if your a prime member 2nd day shipping is free or 11.99 for next day.


http://www.amazon.com/Brad-Penn009-7139 ... d+penn+30w

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tkhersom
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Re: KFL Engine Oil

Post by tkhersom » Sun Feb 01, 2015 1:35 pm

jim g wrote:
wloving wrote:Just as an FYI - I like ordering from Amazon, but DSM Graveyard has the Brad Penn SAE 30 Part# 7139 oil for $7.50 per quart versus $11.00 per quart on Amazon.

Web site is: http://www.thedsmgraveyard.com. They also have more of it in stock. I don't work for them, just found them on a google search.

Will
1956 Chris Craft Sedan Cruiser with MCL
Not sure how your buying it from Amazon. But I just checked and its 78.14 a case for 30 weight and if your a prime member 2nd day shipping is free or 11.99 for next day.


http://www.amazon.com/Brad-Penn009-7139 ... d+penn+30w
As I calculate it that comes out to $6.51/qt and if you are NOT a prime member it qualifies for free ground shipping. Since it is Feb 1st and there is another foot of snow headed our way I don't need next day or two day shipping. :D
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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