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Torque that manifold

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SteveH
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Torque that manifold

Post by SteveH » Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:00 pm

How? I just replaced the exhaust manifold gasket in my K. I can get a torque wrench on the 2nd and 7th nut, but the rest - forget it. I brought them all up gradually, then used the two accessible nuts for reference (going 20, 25, 30 lbs) and tried to apply similar pressure to the other nuts with a regular hand wrench. I'm not sensing that I over-tightened, but maybe under-tightened on the others.

Is there a little leeway on this installation as compared to say the head gasket? The exhaust gasket was a nice thick affair purchased from one of our known vendors.

Looking to test run in the driveway this aft, but just felt like running it by folks.

Thanks for reading, Steve
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1959 22' Sea Skiff (2263)
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17 ft. Devlin Oarling

Peter M Jardine
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:22 pm

The long answer is that there are specialized tools for this application. You can also use an extended crows foot wrench with a torque wrench, but you need to do the calculation to account for the extra leverage involved.

The short answer is that overtightened is worse generally than undertightened..... put a nice snug on it and it should be fine. I would be a lot more fussy on a head bolt.

SteveH
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Location: St. Lawrence River

Re: Torque that manifold

Post by SteveH » Fri Aug 02, 2013 6:37 pm

Thanks Peter,

Well, I gave it a go. Good news - choke is fixed and the water pump leak was solved with a new gasket. Motor ran great - nice low smooth idle.

Bummer news - the freakin manifold leaks in the exact same spot as where the previous gasket had breached. It was a good drip. I was able to snug up that last rear bolt some more as it was looser thn the others. This lessened the drip to one per 30 seconds, but that clearly is not right. Now I'm worried about going much more on that nut. There is an extrusion in the manifold to allow for a water fitting, so its just really hard to get a wrench on that nut and get some travel. I did get it tight though the second time.

The manifold and block surfaces seemed really good. I put an aluminium straight edge across the planes and it looked good. I guess that doesn't necessarily mean there is not a slight warp or something at play.

Some thoughts,

1. I put the gasket on dry, so I could try some sealant. However, I feel that I am just guessing on the torque beyond the two easy nuts.
2. Get someone who knows what they are doing.
3. Does this gasket now qualify as "used"? I hope I haven't killed it. If intact, it is reasonable to assume it could be reused with some goop.

Peter, you mentioned a local awesome mechanic - sending you a PM on that.

Any thoughts appreciated.

Clayton Boat Show this weekend - not there this year - enjoy.

Steve
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1959 22' Sea Skiff (2263)
16 ft. Oughtred Penny Fee
17 ft. Devlin Oarling

John Justice
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by John Justice » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:16 pm

Socket head cap screws aren't original but they can solve access problems sometimes. I'd rather have the 'wrong' bolt than the wrong torque or a leak.

Peter M Jardine
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:18 pm

something is not right in terms of surfaces. You can put some goop on them, but fundamentally you should try to find out why that is. You need someone with a set up table to determine whether this manifold is flat in all the dimensions. A machine shop with a surfacing grinder can take 5 thou off and that would probably make the difference... and it's cheap. I am going to suspect the manifold before the block. Also, make sure that the studs are good and straight... if one is binding at the edge of a hole it could prevent a torque down. Generally an exhaust manifold is around 30 to 40 pounds torque, over torqueing breaks off flanges....

Anyway, unless you have a machined quality straightedge, you won't be able to tell a small difference. You need to measure this manifold and find out.

Jim Brown 542 1946

SteveH
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by SteveH » Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:10 pm

Appreciated - thanks.
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1959 22' Sea Skiff (2263)
16 ft. Oughtred Penny Fee
17 ft. Devlin Oarling

SteveH
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:51 pm
Location: St. Lawrence River

Re: Torque that manifold

Post by SteveH » Mon Sep 29, 2014 8:59 pm

Hi all,

This is an old post. Many positives moving forward, but I can't stop the water leaking from around my manifold.

Long story short, I am on attempt three. The manifold was surfaced (once) for the second failed attempt and then planed by an auto rebuild shop for the third (today). The block was inspected by the latter shop when the manifold was planed. On this final attempt, a qualified marine mechanic did the install. Torqued to specs plus a pound or two. The drips are there and the motor is stumbling badly I guess from water in the intakes (?).

I have used the gaskets sold by known vendors - whitish sandwich affairs. I have bought two from different vendors and they are identical. Ultra copper used for the final two installs. Anyone had an issues with these gaskets?

He's frustrated. I'm going a bit nuts. He wants to try Permatex Right Stuff with no precut gasket. I see this is for temps to 500 degrees and I think not ideal or suitable for gas applications. I had no thoughts on this at the time as I was not familiar with the product. Any thoughts on this? Worth a try? Asking for trouble so go back and explore the problem? Anyone used a gasket maker in this install?

As always, appreciate your thoughts.
Steve
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1959 22' Sea Skiff (2263)
16 ft. Oughtred Penny Fee
17 ft. Devlin Oarling

jim g
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by jim g » Tue Sep 30, 2014 5:17 pm

Where is the leak happening? Can you post a picture of it? If the manifold was surfaced correctly you should not have a leak.

SteveH
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Location: St. Lawrence River

Re: Torque that manifold

Post by SteveH » Tue Sep 30, 2014 9:34 pm

Thanks Jim,

Unfortunately, the manifold is off again. I put a hold on the Right Stuff approach. It doesn't feel right.

The water always leaks at the bottom rear corner of the manifold. I also saw a few droplets forming mid-way along the bottom. They are not coming from the manifold inlet, nor is the head leaking any water.

I enclose a picture of the planed manifold which tells you nothing except it was done. It seems very good to me and there is no dip at the back or along the entire surface. The block would appear very true as well. We are at a loss. These gaskets almost seem a bit absorbant. Its like there is abnormal pressure and its being pushed laterally through the gasket. The motor has one of the factory Holley thermostats - I have always wondered if that was a factor since I've never known if I have the correct element and it would appear that the outflow of water from the front top of the block is actually blocked until it heats up. Then I wonder about the studs being afactor somehow...in other words, at a complete loss.
IMG_00000233.jpg
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1959 22' Sea Skiff (2263)
16 ft. Oughtred Penny Fee
17 ft. Devlin Oarling

farupp
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by farupp » Wed Oct 01, 2014 6:45 am

It could be a leak around the studs or a very small crack. Try taking the stud out and putting sealer on the threads and the stud entire stud shaft before you put the manifold back on. These leaks are hard to find.
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

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mbigpops
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by mbigpops » Wed Oct 01, 2014 8:46 am

Did you magnuflux the manifold for cracks and have it pressure tested ?

Pretty amazing what shows up.

Mark
1953 CC Rocket Runabout "Rocket Man"

SteveH
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Location: St. Lawrence River

Re: Torque that manifold

Post by SteveH » Wed Oct 01, 2014 1:34 pm

Thanks,

Someone else mentioned the stud leak thing. I am trying to understand how the water would escape if not showing at the nut.

I believe the manifold was pressure tested, but not magnufluxed. I just checked out a few Youtubes on that - amazing how a crack appears where there appeared to be no cracks. I will follow up.

I'm thinking of pulling the boat from the current mechanic. I should have mentioned that the boat was running horrifically at his shop on Monday when I saw the drips - it was a dry land test. I thought maybe it was water, but on my last run (complete with way more drips), I had a very pleasant boat ride with a beautiful sounding motor. While a few improvements have been made, a number of changes to plugs and wires, carb soakings, timing etc. Now the suggestion is leaky valves for its poor running, but none appear stuck. So maybe leaky, but big changes in running since last year. A compression test was done with readings of +-160 lbs across the board - that indicates a poor test or too many haircuts on the head, or other.

So, thinking I was a manifold installation away, I am two steps back and maybe more. Need to find a super knowledgeable local contact for this engine or send it away to see whats up with everything. Thanks for the rant.

Good news - got my factory 12 volt generator back complete with new armature - its awesome! Thanks to Peter for the great generator shop suggestion in his neck of the woods - Peter, got any more?

Steve


Steve
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1959 22' Sea Skiff (2263)
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17 ft. Devlin Oarling

farupp
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by farupp » Wed Oct 01, 2014 3:27 pm

I believe when you remove the stud you will see that the threads in the block end in the water jacket. I have had a leak as a result of this before. When I coated the all the threads with sealer it stopped the leak. If you also coat the shaft of the stud and the hole in the manifold through which the stud is inserted, it may stop any water leakage around the stud shaft. It's worth a try. One time I ruined an exhaust valve when a small crack in the manifold allowed a very fine mist of water to spray onto the valve.

I never had a problem with a the manifold gasket on the K and M engines I have had. It was always a crack in the manifold itself or leakage around the stud.
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

SteveH
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:51 pm
Location: St. Lawrence River

Re: Torque that manifold

Post by SteveH » Wed Oct 01, 2014 7:45 pm

That's interesting. Thanks. What do you use for sealer in this application?.

Steve
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1959 22' Sea Skiff (2263)
16 ft. Oughtred Penny Fee
17 ft. Devlin Oarling

farupp
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by farupp » Thu Oct 02, 2014 6:16 am

Steve: I used Permatex Form-A-Gasket in a tube. It's black and gooey, non-hardening, and difficult to get off of your fingers and clothes. But it really seals. You can get it at any auto parts store.

Frank
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

SteveH
Posts: 125
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2013 1:51 pm
Location: St. Lawrence River

Re: Torque that manifold

Post by SteveH » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:41 am

Thanks Frank,

When I get the boat back, I'll be having a good look around and do some of my own tests. The end studs have some erosion on them, where the middle ones look just about new. I always wondered about that - maybe related. Are new studs available and generic to many blocks? I thought I heard somewhere that this part (around the end studs) of the block is weak - maybe someone didn't change them out for concerns of cracking something. Or maybe the center one are just well preserved. I can post a picture of what I mean in a few days.

I saw a little video on a spray product that finds cracks - the story was - people use it for swap meets/junkers to look for trouble spots in parts before they take it home. Four little spray cans - looked like it worked. Cleaner, dye, remover and highlighter (the way I describe it). Dye stays in crack and gets highlighted. Anyone have experience with this?

Steve
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1959 22' Sea Skiff (2263)
16 ft. Oughtred Penny Fee
17 ft. Devlin Oarling

farupp
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by farupp » Thu Oct 02, 2014 7:48 am

I have not used the spray products you mention to find cracks. But it sounds like a short cut version of magnifluxing which clearly shows where the cracks are located with a dye that stays in the cracks. If you have a small crack, depending on the location and length, the Permatex might seal it up for a while. But that is not a solution to the problem; only a short-term fix.
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

charlesquimby
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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by charlesquimby » Fri Oct 03, 2014 12:16 pm

Steve... The process with the spray cans is a "liquid dye penetrant test". I used this process to examine welds when I worked as a supervisor at a nuclear power plant. The process works well as long as the surface being examined is smooth. This was usually accomplished by die-grinding/sanding the area in question. The process is difficult to use on castings due to porosity in the material, and may display a false positive. Pressure testing is a more reliable method, but nitrogen should be the test medium because it will show a crack under cold conditions. An air pressure test may not reveal a problem unless the part is heated to op temperature. Charley Q.

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Re: Torque that manifold

Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:24 pm

Steve, I would talk to Hewitt's down in Brockville. 613 342 3783. They are well thought of and do vintage engine resto.

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