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283 Running hot

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petergantt
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283 Running hot

Post by petergantt » Sat Aug 27, 2011 11:19 pm

Recently have finished a restoration on my 1963 Chris Craft custom ski runabout powered by a 283 V8. Engine seems to be running hot. Could this be a thermostat problem, and if so where can I get some new thermostats for it? Any other suggestions would be much appriciated.

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Sun Aug 28, 2011 6:12 am

Unless it has been modified there is no thermostat. You have a bad waterpump or impeller. The pump should be on the front starboard side with two hoses coming in and two going out. Post a pic and we can help identify it.

It could be the older brass gear style which is very expensive to fix, or a slightly less old one with rubber impellers. If it is the latter, it can usually be fixed with a new impeller for less than $50 and 5 minutes with a screw driver. If it is the brass gear kind it will be cheaper to get a new pump.

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Post by Don Ayers » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:31 pm

Also investigate the entire system for obstructions.

Is it hot on just one side or both? What is getting hot exactly.

There are many with a lot of experience on this forum but you will find the more detailed the post the better the response.

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Paul P
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Re: 283 Running hot

Post by Paul P » Mon Aug 29, 2011 11:24 am

petergantt wrote: Engine seems to be running hot.
I suppose I could ask "how hot did it get", or "how do you know it is running hot", but we'll just deal with the water pump issue now.

A hand held pyrometer, now available for under $100 from many sources, is a great tool for boat, car, or home. You can even scan your circuit breakers in the winter time to see if any one in particular is warmer than the other one, just to know how your heating system is working, etc.

A pyrometer would probably show you if the left or right side of the motor was hotter than the other and that could be of some value to diagnose the issue.

Hopefully you have the rubber impeller pump version for the reasons stated in the previous reply, which had some good advice. Check to be sure the belt is tight and the pump is spinning properly, which it apparently is otherwise you would probably hear a squeel or smell rubber from the belt slippage.

The dual system pump is actually two pumps within a single brass housing. You MUST have the two discharge ports and two intake ports properly hooked to the motor. There must not be any air leakage into the suction side of the system, from pump to bottom of the boat, be sure all fittings are tight. Rubber impellers are most likely the quick fix (again hoping you have the rubber impeller type), but if the cam is worn you can even buy one of those too (the cam is that brass internal part that the impeller brushes against to create suction, as they wear our they start pumping less water, normally these don't need to be replaced), and the best source I know of is to call the guys at Depco
but be sure you know the exact model or serial number on your pump, and you may need to remove it to see it, before calling 800-446-1656

Here is their link.............really good people

http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/8d8 ... 83d4ae/112

Regards,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

petergantt
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283 running hot

Post by petergantt » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:29 pm

Thanks for the insights everyone, I'm not much of a mechanic. Does the fact that water is being exhausted indicate that the water pump is working? That has been my theory, but I'm new to this.
The obviously good question "what is hot" is hard to answer in that only one temperature gauge seems to be working, and it is pegged at when there's a load on the engine. it will creep back down as rpms decrease.I'm suspicious of this sensor, and would like to know if there's a good way to test it without replacing it. If it is faulty, is there a source you know of to get replacements. Again, thanks for sharing your knowledge, and your patience with dumb questions

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Mark Campbell
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Post by Mark Campbell » Mon Aug 29, 2011 6:30 pm

My rule of thumb is if you can rest your hand on it for 10 seconds it is 140 or less. Sounds kinda silly but works for the inline 4 or 6 cylinders for me.
Apprentice too Dale Tassell from 1985 till current. Too listen is to learn.

1933 CC Split 15.5 Model 300
1942 CC Special 17
1946 CC Deluxe 17 (2)
1949 CC Deluxe 17
1956 CC Cavalier 15

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:29 am

There are two parts to the gauge working. The temp sender and the guage itself.

The temp sender screws into the water lines and it starts with a high resistance when cold, and as it gets warmer, the resistance drops and it becomes a path to ground. You can look up the resistance profile and get a multimeter and measure it while you have it at known temps using water on your stove and a reliable thermometer.

The gauge can be checked with a few resistors. Put the resistors between the gaude wire and ground (the engine) and it should read withing 5-10 degrees of what is predicted by the specs.

You can find the resistance to temperature specs here or on the web. I don't have them handy but I did find them and test both my gauges this spring.

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Paul P
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Post by Paul P » Tue Aug 30, 2011 10:55 am

A little back-yard and easy technology: when in doubt, you can swap wires, to see if the sender will register the same reading on the other gauge, etc. 8)

Regards,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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Post by Kade06 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:07 am

So I have the brass gear water pump. Are these better or worse compaed to the impeller type? Besides cost whats the pro's and con's? We keep the grease cup full and to our knowledge it has never been rebuilt. Its a 1965 283. Just curious. Sorry for jumping in on this post.
Thanks,
Kristian
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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Paul P
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Post by Paul P » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:42 pm

I ran one like it for many years on a Hercules 95 never had any problem with it, just gave it a twist now and then to assure it would have enough grease in it to create a prime. With the rubber impellers they create their own prime and you don't have grease being pumped into your motor. If it works, I sure would find something else to worry about! 8)

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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Post by rgmxk22 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:51 pm

Well Kade06, in my opinion there are two main problems with the gear type water pump on a 283. One is that they are almost impossible to rebuild correctly because most of the parts are not available any longer. Second, as they wear, the pumps will move less water than they should and can even lose their prime and quit pumping.

My dad's 1963 31' CC Sea Skiff had gear pumps on them and we believe that we lost an engine over the fact that the gear pump quit pumping as we were running at speed. We lost cooling water and severely overheated an engine. I mean we cooked it!

We didn't know that the pump had quit until it was way too late. That was before we installed a high engine temp alarm system, so it shouldn't happen again.

I finally found a couple of the rubber impeller style pumps and it was one of the best things we ever did to those engines. The engines run cooler since the pumps move more water though the engine. And the fact I don't have to mess around priming the pumps when the boat is launched in the spring is a huge bonus too. We worked with those gear pumps for at least 15 years and the rubber impeller pumps are just better all around pumps, plus the fact they are fairly easy to rebuild.

An interesting fact is if you look at a CC parts book for a 283 flywhell forward, you'll see that CC started orignially using a rubber impeller pump, then went to the gear style and back to a rubber impeller pump. So something changed their mind about the gear pumps along the way.

I've thought about why they used a gear pump and the only thing I can think of is maybe they though that the gears would hold up to sand and such going through them better than a rubber impeller pump.

But for my money, I'd want the rubber impeller pump over the gear pump any day. But if your's is working, that's fine I wouldn't run out today to change it. But if you start to have trouble, the rubber impeller is the way to go.

Ron Michael
1972 CC XK22
Ohio
Last edited by rgmxk22 on Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Kade06
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Post by Kade06 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:08 pm

Thanks thats great info. It is kind of hard to prime when shes been out of the water but ususally higher rpm's make it pick up fastr. Assuming you can get it primed before the engine gets hot. We constantly check the flow out of the exhaust when were out. Our theory has always been if its flowing its cooling. Although I've began to question that as I continue to read post here.My brother has a temp gun I'll have to check it. Thanks.
Kristian
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:36 pm

Water coming out of the exhaust means it is cooling something somewhat. It definitely does not mean it is cooling everything enough. Watching for white steam and placing your hands on the ends of the heads is a better indicator.

When I got my new engine this spring, the builder loaned me a temp gun and suggested I shoot the oil pan as well as the heads. The oil does run a bit hotter than heads do since there is no oil cooler. If you get a gun, check both sides, front and back on the heads, oil pan and exhausts to get an idea how even things are and what the real temps are relative to what the guages read.

As for brass gear pumps, they are a heck of a lot more reliable than a rubber pump, until they are not. Rubber impellers can die anytime. This summer I lost a set that had maybe 10-12 hours on them, never run even for a few seconds out of the water. The plus side is a few minutes and a screw driver get you back running again. With a gear pump it is more of a slow decline or failure to prime, and then a long and pricey rebuild.

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Post by Kade06 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:44 pm

So what temp ranges are acceptable at these different locations? End of heads, oil pan and water manifolds? Thanks for the info.
Kristian
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:25 pm

It depends.

Most engines with thermostats are setup to run with water/head temps in the 140 to 175 range. If you run in salt water it is more important to be at the cooler end of the range. Many modern cars are set to run at 210 because warmer engines have some benfits for efficiency and emissions. That is hotter than I want the engine sitting in a wood engine box on a boat, but you are not destroying the engine until you get well over 175.

Oil temp limits are going to depend on the oil you use with some modern synthetics probably being OK up over 350, but I figure anything under 225 is going to be fairly safe.

My 350 with 283 cooling has been running about 155 on one head 165-170 on the other with the oil at around 190, this is with surface water temps in the high 70's to low 80's. The water intake is a long run from the back and is restricting flow, so I will be making some changes this winter that should bring those temps down, but they are not "too hot" and hopefully they wont come down too far. Note, these temps are with the IR gun. The gauges checked out fairly close with resistors, but the temp senders (brand new) cause them both to read 20-25 degrees too high at temp and even higher at startup.

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Post by Kade06 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 5:42 pm

alright I'll check it out this weekend. Our water temps are over 90 right now. I guess that could make a little difference. Either way something to start with. Thanks for the info.
Kristian
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

rgmxk22
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Post by rgmxk22 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 7:12 pm

While we're on the subject of cooling these engines and I mentioned in my last post about installing engine warning systems on my dad's 283s.

Well, you don't need to spend a ton of money on a system. We used these from Cole Hersee:
http://www.colehersee.com/home/item/cat/232/M-40177BP/

I believe you can buy these from West, Freeeport Marine, Defender or even a GOOD parts store in a boating area for less than $50.00. My 2010 Freeport Marine catalog lists them at $36.99 each.

Since a 283 flywheel forward has a split cooling system, we ordered extra temp senders for each engine in dad's boat and plumbed one sender into each of the pipe fittings at the front for each exhaust manifold. So you have two temp senders/sensors and one oil pressure sender/sensor on a 283 flywheel forward.

The only minor drawback is that at start up, you have to listen to the alarm's buzzer go off until the oil pressure comes up. But the small peace of mind even with this basic system is worth that buzzer at start up. Sure there are more advanced systems out there, but these aren't bad for the money.

I even put one of these on the CC 350 FLVHP in my CC XK22. Once when I picked up a bunch of weeds and grass on the outdrive and it blocked the cooling water intake, this alarm fired off before things went bad.

Ron Michael
72 CC XK22
Ohio

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:35 pm

You can get an oil preasure switch with a starter bypass, so it won't sense low oil while you are turning the key. As soon as it fires the preasure will come up quick so you should not hear the buzzing. I got one for an electric fuel pump. Even better than a buzzer, no oil preassure will cut off the engine no matter how ham fisted the driver is.

The temp buzzer is a nice backup to the temp gauges if you are not in the habbit of regularly scanning the panel.

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Post by rgmxk22 » Tue Aug 30, 2011 9:35 pm

You're idea of the oil pressure switch with the starter by-pass is pretty good, but the one reason I personally didn't go that route was so when I do crank the engine and hear the buzzer, at least I know the oil pressure side of the warning system is working.

I did have to replace my ignition swith to one with an accessory only position so I could raise and lower the outdrive on my XK22 without the buzzer constanly going off.

But if I was running an electric fuel pump like you mentioned, the by-pass switch is a GREAT idea and I believe it's even required by the Coast Guard if you have an electric pump on your boat. The by-pass switch lessens the chance of the fuel pump feeding a fire in the event of the engine stopping during a fire. The the electric pump could keep feeding fuel without that by-pass switch. But as you said, no oil pressure and the fuel pumps stops.

Sorry, I know we're getting a little off topic here.

Ron Michael
72 CC XK22
Ohio

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wnoll
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Thermostat on 283F

Post by wnoll » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:41 am

I have twin 283F in my 35' Corinthian and they have thermostats. They are not automotive style and I'm having a heck of a time locating them and just removing doesn't improve overheating if the circulating water pump is not working. The circulating water pump is required to move the water properly through portions of the engine and push it out of the exhaust. If water is coming out of the exhaust it just shows that the intake water pump is working along with the relieve valves (if you have risers) as the water starts to flow once a certain pressure is reached. The circulating water pump is what actually circulates the water through the engine with the thermostat keeping it at a constant temperature.

To think as automotive the intake pump is your radiator and the circulating is your normal water pump with the only difference is when it leaves the engine by the thermostat it is sent out the exhaust in stead of recirculated.

Sorry no real answers but thought some clarity to the thermostat was worthwhile. Yours may not have a thermostat as I'm no expert on all the 283s, just know that mine do from 1964 and I have the original paperwork so it came that way from factory.
64 Sea Skiff Corinthian 35'

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Post by rgmxk22 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 9:08 am

wnoll,

You are correct that the 283F series engines in your boat need a thermostat to cool correctly. In fact, the 350FLV in my boat has basically the same cooling system as your 283F engines. Some previous owner had removed the themostat and my engine would run hot at times.

The themostat in this cooling system also acts as a mixing valve for the cooling system. So without the themostat, the temp of the engine will do strange things.

But you said that you are having trouble locating new thermostats for you engines. When I found my new thermostat, the guy at the parts store said it was basically a Chrysler thermostat. And the owner of this parts store KNOWS marine engines backwards and forwards, he's one of those parts guys that has all kinds of part numbers stored in his brain and from seeing what piece in your hands, can go pull your parts as you walk in the door and haven't even spoken to him yet.

I can see if I can dig up the part number for the one he sold me, but it's been a few years, so if I can find the receipt, I'll let you know the part number.

But the early 283 flywheel forward engines we've been talking about only have one water pump. It draws in the water from the lake and pushes it through the engine too. As for themostats, CC didn't put one on these engines. I've heard that there was a kit to add one to these engines and have even seen kits on ebay that claim to be a themostat kit for them, but I've never actually seen one on a 283 flywheel forward. If someone has a themostsat set-up on a 283 flywheel forward, I'd love to see you post a picture or two here.

Going back to the original post from petergantt, we never have established if he has a 283 flywheel forward or a later engine like a 283F. If he has an original boat, I'd think that it is a 283 flywheel forward.

Ron Michael
72 CC XK22
Ohio
Last edited by rgmxk22 on Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Paul P
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Post by Paul P » Thu Sep 01, 2011 11:09 am

They do make a kit for the SBC motor and I have one on my flywheel forward installation in the 1956 17' Sportsman, sorry about this photo, it was during the engine swap but you can see proof here. The next two links will help identify what you are looking at.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/ ... e1d838.jpg


http://www.rexmar.com/page161.html

http://www.rexmar.com/page160.html

These used to be available from Glen L, and from CP Marine, and I am sure many others too. You will note the links I posted quickly are for the Big Block motors but they are available for the small blocks too, and the flow diagram is the same.

Regards,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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Post by rgmxk22 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 7:07 pm

Thanks for the pics and links Paul. I believe I can make out the thermostat housing you're showing on your engine and I get the idea from the links you posted.

I never doubted their existance, I've just never seen one factory installed and the ones I've seen on ebay were supposedly made by Holley (the carb people).

What you show in the links would work if you had the standard, automotive type intake manifold on a 283 flywheel forward. But I believe some of the original CC intakes were aluminum castings, without water passages in them. That's why the water outlets were drilled in the front of the cylinder heads. That was the cooling water's path between the engine and exhaust manifolds.

Or if the set up is like on my dad's 283s, he has the low profile intakes that look like they came off of a Q series CC V-8. These were factory replacements for the original low profile manifolds that were on his boat from day one.

If you're familar with the intake manifold on a Q series CC, there is a place that looks like a thermostat good go on his engines. But I would be concerned that a thermostat could cause water stoppage when closed. Since there is no themrostat by-pass provision on a 283 flywheel forward's cooling system, I'm not real sure if stopping the pump's water flow with a closed thermostat til it opens is a good idea.

Ron Michael
72 CC XK22
Ohio

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:05 pm

Ron,

That housing handles the bypass and dump into the exhaust when the thermostat is closed. From what I could gather the system works pretty well, but I am not sure it is worth it to convert a 283 that is already functional.

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Post by rgmxk22 » Thu Sep 01, 2011 8:26 pm

Thanks mfine,

I see the by-pass built into that housing after studying the diagram Paul posted. I missed that at first.

I do agree that if the cooling system is working on a 283 flywheel forward, the fact that there isn't a thermostat isn't a big problem. Sure the engines take longer to warm up and are a little tempermental in the cooler spring and fall seasons, but the system is pretty simple and works fine. Well, that is if you have a good water pump, tight belts and clean cooling passages in the engine.

Ron Michael
72 CC XK22
Ohio

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Post by petergantt » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:55 am

Just took a hand held temperature reader, pyrometer(as suggested)along for a test of my 283 which I suspected of running hot. I was suprised to find the temperature fluctuate as much as it did, not only side to side in the system, but from the valve covers to the manifolds.At times the temperature was equal side to side, but at other times very different.I realize that with cool water being introduced continually there is going to be variation, but was not prepared for that much fluxuation within the system. The highest temperature I recorded was about 200 degrees, and did not always coincide with the rpms. At times it was hot enough to produce steam out the exhaust, but that would pass, and it would cool back down. My question is, is this wide temperature variation normal, and am I right to be concerned with the steam issue? Also, I found running at 3000 rpm and above produced a hesitation that felt like the engine was being starved for fuel. This took about 30 0r 40 seconds to happen, and didn't happen right off. Am I correct in thinking this is a carberater issue, and that a possible carb rebuild is the fix?

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:43 pm

If the engine is starving for gas at higher RPM, it is leaning out as you change throttle. That by itself will change the temp the engine runs at. I would avoid letting that happen. The 30-40 second delay could be the bowl in the carb running out of extra fuel. This could be a problem in the carb or upstream like a fuel filter or fuel pump or...

The valve cover temps don't matter much, the heads and the oil are the main points to watch. The outside of the exhaust manifolds get the water first so those should be relatively cool. I hear the side to side variation is normal in these engines, but I am not sure why.

As for other variation, mine runs coolest from about 1000 rpm to about 3200. Below that I think the pump is not turning fast enough, and above I think my intake setup is restricting flow. I probably see about a 25 degree range when out running different speed like taking kids tubing where there is a big gap in courage levels (speeds). .

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Paul P
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Post by Paul P » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:25 pm

check that fuel filter if the carb is leaning out. Lots of times people look at everything but the totally crapped up filter, and in some cases as the 327F, the only filter CC provided (on runabouts anyway) was an aluminum cannister that on my restoration was so full of junk it would not even drain when the plug was pulled out. The larger RACOR type filters (which I promptly installed) can also clog especially with our old fuel tanks full of debris. Change them once a year or as needed. As for the standard CC filter I described earlier, that would be a last resort as I suspect it would let way too much junk into the carb itself.

best,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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Mark Campbell
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Post by Mark Campbell » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:35 pm

Mine would run hot and start sputtering and sometimes white myst when engine went back to smooth idle. Every 20 seconds after hitting 3100 like clock work....clogged carb / bad filter and so on. This is why I am placing redundant filters.
Apprentice too Dale Tassell from 1985 till current. Too listen is to learn.

1933 CC Split 15.5 Model 300
1942 CC Special 17
1946 CC Deluxe 17 (2)
1949 CC Deluxe 17
1956 CC Cavalier 15

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Post by rgmxk22 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:24 pm

Since you said it seem like maybe the enigne was running out of fuel or going lean, did you ever experience a backfire or any popping when the engine did that?

Also, if you're comfortable working on the distributor or know someone who is, make sure that advance system under the point plate is free and not stuck with rust or gunk.

Finally, when you checked the temps on the exhaust manifolds, did you always check in the same location or the same series of locations on the manifolds? I ask because if you randomly shot the surface temps of the exhaust manifolds, you could possibly get different readings by jumping around to different areas.

Like the center of the manifold could be a little hotter since the two middle cylinders on each side of the engine block have the exhaust ports right next to each other while the end cylinders are by themselves. So you could get different temp reading in the middle of the manifold since there is more heat from two cylinders dumping into the manilfold so close, while the ends could be cooler.

And as mifine mentioned, the cooling water from the water pumps enters one passage in the exhaust manifold first to help cool the manifold, but it also tempers the water a little bit before it engine. In fact if I'm remembering correctly, the raw water actually makes two passes through the exhaust manifold before it enters the block.

The water goes through one passage in the exhaust manifold, turns at the end of the manilfold, goes back up through another passage in the exhaust manifold, then enters the engine block. After the water goes through the block, it once again enters a passage in the exhaust manifold, goes down that passage and dumps overboard.

So as you can see, there can easily be a range of temps on the manifold.

Ron Michael
72 CC XK22
Ohio

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