Twin 283s wanted for my 1960 36-foot CC Constellation

chrisfpdx · Post by **chrisfpdx** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:08 pm

After a friend piloted my boat into a barely sunken piling (a longer sad story) and the the boat was a third under water and my engines were over watered, I was just informed that although they were pickled, they are "toast." Via a professional, we've done all the hull repairs to correct and beautiful standards I was a bit surprised about the engines.

So, I am needing a set of twin 283 Chris Craft Marine V8s (counter rotating) for my 1960 36-foot Chris Craft Constellation. Must be in good running condition for my excellent boat and able to mate to a Paragon transmission. Willing to consider other Chris Craft marine engines of the V8 variety (318 CC Chrysler or 327 CC Chevrolet is okay, but NO to the CC Lincoln-derived 430 or 431).

Chris
503-998-0231
email: [email protected]

gbraker · Post by **gbraker** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:31 pm

There is a 36 ft Cavalier in a marina near me. the boat hasn't been in the water for several years, and it probably has 283's. I don't know how soon or if ever I could get control of the boat, but its a possibility. Its just rotting away with no cover so no one really cares about it.

Let me know what you are willing to pay, because I'm not going to go to that much trouble for free, but at the same time scrapping boats really isn't my line of work. Maybe if you live close you could come and help me get the engines. The Cavaliers cut up fast because there are no battens, and you can really go fast with a good sawzall.

chrisfpdx · Post by **chrisfpdx** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 5:47 pm

Hi. Thanks for the reply! I'm In the Portland, Oregon area. Where is the boat? As far as what I would pay, would depend upon the condition of the engines, what they are (hopefully 283s) and whether they have been properly laid up (winterized) and their condition.

Admittedly, this is a bit of uncharted territory as I have mostly dealt with my runabout and recently got into the classic cruiser aspect of the hobby. If you could verify what the engines are, when they last run, how they were laid up for storage and winterized, etc that would be a start.

Best,

Chris
Portland, Oregon
Ph: 503-998-0231
email: [email protected]

gbraker · Post by **gbraker** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:34 pm

I'll check with the marina, but you are a long way away
The problem is that the main value is in the engines. You can scrap the shafts and props and other brass parts but they aren't worth the time it takes to sell.

I don't think it's worth your while

Gary

gbraker · Post by **gbraker** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:40 pm

Maybe I didn't make myself clear on my last post. Sometimes it just isn't worth while to try to recover enough value that it makes it worth while to cut up a boat and sell the parts. If I agree to cut up the boat and sell the parts, the marina expects me to get rid of everything. Sometimes its worth it, but most of the times it isn't. If I was retired It might make me change my mind.

chrisfpdx · Post by **chrisfpdx** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:56 pm

Okay. Thanks. I'll keep pursuing all avenues. Thanks again.

Wood Commander · Post by **Wood Commander** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:27 pm

I don't know if you can do that kind of work or not, but can go get some GM 350/290hp, two-piece rear main seal crate engines and put all of your marine parts on them. There a few things to change out, but it's not extremely hard at all for an even half decent mechanic. Changing one to counter rotation isn't all that hard. A 350 will usually go right in to where a 283 lived before. External dimensions are nearly identical and you will have more power and it will cost no more than rebuilding 283's.

You'll have new engines and piece of mind not worrying about old worn out 283's.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:15 pm

I'm with Bret, all the way....
If your boat is that great, do right by her, get the replacement 350's. Cheaper in the long run, will drop right in there and good to go on the paragons.
That is a BIG boat for the 283's anyway.
John in Va.

djeller · Post by **djeller** » Sun Jan 23, 2011 10:58 pm

I am in the process of rebuilding a 283 for my Sea Skiff. It is my opinion you would be better off to take Bret's advice and purchase long block Chevy 350's for replacement. Not too much modification is necessary. Jim Staib @ finewoodboats.com is a wealth of knowledge on these replacements. He advised me to get a long block Chevy 350 truck engine and convert. If I had only listened it would have been easier and more cost efficient. These 350's are reasonably priced from a Chevy dealer and easy to find. Give Jim a call for advice. He's a great Chris Craft resource.

rdapron · Post by **rdapron** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:54 am

Chris, Bret’s advice is right on. The biggest bang for the buck would be to buy long blocks and use your existing accessories. If it was my boat I would go one step further and use 383 long blocks instead of 350’s – one can never have enough power, especially in a cruiser.
rob

BrokenRule2 · Post by **BrokenRule2** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 1:25 am

I am running 350 blocks in place of the 283's bolted to the same transmissions and you cannot tell visualy they are 350's. Still running the same generators, fuel system, exhaust and plumbing from 1960.

I would recommend this over installing 283's AND if you have the room... step up to the later alternator version of the engines. I don't have the room in the 32' engine compartment as flywheel is very close to the bulkhead.

Mike

drrot · Post by **drrot** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 7:37 am

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/2171605091.html

Dick Baner · Post by **Dick Baner** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:41 am

I just finished replacing the twin engines in my 33 ft cruiser with long block 350,s. Be sure to look for 4bolt main truck engines. All the 283 accessories fit right up to the engine. You can buy pairs of long blocks that will give you one opposite rotation (usually the starboard engine in a flywheel aft setup. If you have raw water pumps mounted to the front right end of the engine you need to be careful that the heads have the necessary mounting holes for those pumps as most long block rebuilts do not have them. The head casting numbers are probably inside under the valve covers. You can get a pair online for $3-4,500 including the freight. I paid more in order to have my marina buy the engines to keep warranty issues at one place and they charged $750 per engine to do the switchout. While you are at it be sure to dissemble the exhaust manifolds and risers and have them boiled out. Jim Staib can supply the necessary replacement gaskets. Dick Baner

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Mon Jan 24, 2011 9:41 am

I would not ramp up the HP too much....the paragon, I expect you have the 2.0 or 2.5 gear, is not rated for too much HP....but built like a tank....
John in Va.

chrisfpdx · Post by **chrisfpdx** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 6:32 pm

Thanks to everyone for their thoughtful responses. Apparently, the message left by the marine mechanic "we have a significant issue to chat about" was not about the engines as they turned fine and he suspects when they run tomorrow, we likely will be okay since the engines were pickled.

Apparently, the "issue" in question had to do with the batteries and he wanted to know what I wanted to do about them. Ha. Just goes to show you that based upon the mechanics prior wondering doubts and coupled with the ominous message so far have proved wrong, Let's just hope that holds true tomorrow!

The engines are original to the boat, in good shape and ran well prior to the water incident so I'd had to change that if I don't have to as the boat is do original. I like found the 283s to be sweet running units and had the boat running up to 23-24 knots without much fuss for all her nearly 13,000 lbs.

If anything further develops on this, I'm coming back to revisit the issue. It's a nice boat and on the hull registry on the Chris Craft site under "Rumpus" which is a 1960 36-feet Constellation.

Chris Finks
Portland, Oregon

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Tue Jan 25, 2011 7:59 pm

Wow, yet another fellow get REAL SPEED numbers out of SBC's! And on a 36 footer!

Old John in Va. still says NO WAY! lol.

John in Va.

Gord · Post by **Gord** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:13 pm

Just buy long blocks, I put two 350 Chev long blocks in my 61 CCC, not only are the 350's more powerfull they are cheap. All I did was order one without a cam shaft and I put in a counter rotating cam, you can get those from comp cams. You will be very happy with the 350's.

Dick Baner · Post by **Dick Baner** » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:32 pm

You cannot just change the camshaft to produce a counter rotating engine. You have to pull the standard chain and sprocket and replace with a gear set. The gear set is more expensive than the original setup which is why a counterrotation long block costs a little more. Also, if it is importantant to you there are differences between an automotive long block and a marine long block. dick baner

chrisfpdx · Post by **chrisfpdx** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:51 pm

jfrprops wrote:Wow, yet another fellow get REAL SPEED numbers out of SBC's! And on a 36 footer!

Old John in Va. still says NO WAY! lol.

John in Va.

Hello John in Va. According to my GPS and that of my co-pilot that day, we clocked the boat at just over 25 mph or 22 knots or so. Not the first time either. She's a runner!

chrisfpdx · Post by **chrisfpdx** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:57 pm

I am happy to report that I have received a voicemail from the marine mechanic that said the engines a running well and should be fine. Rebuilt the carbs, starters and alternators. So hopefully those engines will remain fine! It's nice to have the original engines remain with the boat, especially since they were rebuilt a few years prior to my ownership.

Thanks to everyone for their responses and advice. I appreciate the help!

Chris Finks
Portland, Oregon

chrisfpdx · Post by **chrisfpdx** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:05 pm

jfrprops wrote:Wow, yet another fellow get REAL SPEED numbers out of SBC's! And on a 36 footer!

Old John in Va. still says NO WAY! lol.

John in Va.

Hello John in Va. According to my GPS and that of my co-pilot that day, we clocked the boat at just over 25 mph or 22 knots or so. Not the first time either. She's a runner!

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:19 pm

Okaaaaay.....what RPM's at that speed?
283's X 36' = 22 knts is not math I have ever experienced. Right out of the factory, fresh and light as it was ever going to be...those would be impressive numbers at 185 hp...X's 2 ...or 210 (327) now with 260 HP each on 350's.....maybe....but I would never run my 33 footer that hard.
THIS IS JUST ME......OK?
Still, if you ran an automobile at the RPM's I figure you need to get that speed, you would be pegged past the highest number on the speedo and hopefully had a tanker truck on call.
Ever the skeptic, or Chicken....
John in Va.

chrisfpdx · Post by **chrisfpdx** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:54 pm

Aww John. I would never say I ran her for extended periods at that speed, but we did give it a shot a couple of times with most of the time treating her gingerly. The boat's a grand old girl, tight and plan on keeping her that way. Still impressive. And, you're right about having a tanker on call...a fuel tanker that is. If you're just running like a normal human being, 4.5 to 6 GPM, but get on it and it's a different story. What is your 33-footer? A Constellation?

Best,

Chris

jfrprops wrote:Okaaaaay.....what RPM's at that speed?
283's X 36' = 22 knts is not math I have ever experienced. Right out of the factory, fresh and light as it was ever going to be...those would be impressive numbers at 185 hp...X's 2 ...or 210 (327) now with 260 HP each on 350's.....maybe....but I would never run my 33 footer that hard.
THIS IS JUST ME......OK?
Still, if you ran an automobile at the RPM's I figure you need to get that speed, you would be pegged past the highest number on the speedo and hopefully had a tanker truck on call.
Ever the skeptic, or Chicken....
John in Va.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:28 pm

Chris, mine is a cavalier seastrake, lapstrake sides etc. Lighter and smaller than your boat, though I have some experience with your exact model with 318's.
Your 4.5 to 6 gpm What do you mean by gpm? Gals per Mile??? I guess? !!!!!
With both 350's at 2700 RPM, four barrells NOT EVER cut in, I get one mile per gallon at cruise....speed 11.5 to 12.5 Knots....GPS numbers a tad highter...so my speedwheel is gunked up a bit....normal.

I wish you would post RPM's for those speeds you mention. This is a fun dialog, and I hope others will chime in....but I STICK TO MY POSITION....you guys have MUCH faster boats then I do.....or than I will do, or ever experienced. Sticking to my "math"
283 SMC V8's = 185 hp....etc etc.
Now as to your gear ratios??? Experience leads me to conclude that you are running 2.0's......1.5's not enough for that boat, 2.5's too much, no speed at all.// post rpm and gear numbers??

Regards and thanks Chris, sounds like you have a great boat there.

Delta Moon · Post by **Delta Moon** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:41 am

So two new 350's with 150 hours on them, New shafts Bearings, 2.1 gear and 18 x 22 new props Pushing a 1958 connie at 4000 rpm brings 18.5 S over ground or 15.5 Knotts. and that = 29.6 MPH with the Tanks full. at 2500 she cruises at 8 knotts or 12.5 Knots over Ground = 20 mph. at that I can cruise for 4 hours and use 50 Gal. of gas, wide open......I am Buying stock in the oil feilds....But she sure feels Nice wide open.

ed laning · Post by **ed laning** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 4:47 pm

Hi Delta Moon, I'm not following your math very well. Just to confirm; the conversion factor is a multiplier of 1.153 to convert knots to mph. Right? 15.5 knots = 17.9 mph. Ed

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:36 pm

Gentlemen, Gentlemen.....the math....the math?????

This is just what I am posting about. ???

Have yet to hear from Chris on RPM or conversion of GPM.....?

GPH is a more typical measure.

MPG is OK too. I guess you guys have a 60 knot tailwind! lol.....! knots over ground...is that uphill or down.....!!

4000 rpm on the 350's is race car stuff...

I went cruising today, windy and 60's...the rest of the country is getting pounded.....what luck!!!

John in Va.

chrisfpdx · Post by **chrisfpdx** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:34 am

Oh man! I mistakenly posted GPM, when I meant GPH (gal per hour) My fat fingers= typos. Yikes! As to the speed, I cannot remember the RPMs, but do remember our two GPS reading the same land speed of right around 25 mph. For a brief time anyway. Frankly, I was stunned but my friend got the same number. This is all fun! Sorry for the GPH typo.

Wood Commander · Post by **Wood Commander** » Thu Feb 03, 2011 7:23 am

Land speed or speed over ground (from a GPS) is probably your true speed. There is ground underneath all of that water, you are moving across the earth's surface and that is what the sattellites see from your GPS. An older style boat speedometer is calculating speed from a propellor drug through the water or possibly using a wet pitot pressure tube and is only telling you speed through the water. And that can be affected by many things currents, river flow, tides and etc.

BrokenRule2 · Post by **BrokenRule2** » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:05 pm

32' Connie, 350X2 unknown HP:

1000 rpm 10 mph
1500 rpm 13 mph
2000 rpm 18 mph
2500 rpm 21 mph
2800 rpm 25 mph*
3000 rpm 28 mph
3500 rpm 35 mph
4200 rpm 45 mph**

All speeds per GPS, mix salt/fresh water, calm, slack tide

*normal cruise range, 8GPH avg and voltage below 14.5V, sometimes at over this rpm the generators will push 15V - I'm working on this...

**hammer down for a very short time getting on plan and watching traffic, adjusted trim, looked down and wow - time to slow down!

All with a clean bottom and factory gear. Anyone running four or five bladed props? Wonder if I could get better speed at 2800 with a prop change - got the HP.

Twin 283s wanted for my 1960 36-foot CC Constellation

Twin 283s wanted for my 1960 36-foot CC Constellation

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