Active Active   Unanswered Unanswered

Lincoln 430/431 revisited

Keeping your powerboat under power is a lot easier with good advice. Post your power systems questions here.

Moderators: Don Ayers, Don Vogt, Al Benton

User avatar
rpccc43
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:18 pm
Location: Irondequoit, NY

Lincoln 430/431 revisited

Post by rpccc43 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 10:17 am

I have decided to bite the bullet and rebuild these monsters given the cost and complications of re-powering. Since I don't have the $15K my local engine shop requires I am going to attempt this myself under the tutelage of an experienced mechanic once one is located and found to be willing.I own 4 of these with all the bolt-on parts so have no shortage of rebuild-able material.

So my question is this: Other than the exhaust and cooling system are the parts used by CC on the "431" the same as those in the rebuild kits that appear to be generally available for the Lincoln 430? Are the cams, lifter,valves,etc the same or did CC modify the engines internally as well? Thanks.

Randman

User avatar
mfine
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sun Jun 06, 2010 8:16 pm
Location: Pittsford and Penn Yan NY

Post by mfine » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:44 am

I would doubt the cam for a marine engine was a standard auto cam. Look for a marine rebuild kit.

User avatar
Don Ayers
Club Executive Team
Posts: 1681
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:05 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Post by Don Ayers » Sat Sep 25, 2010 11:48 am

Randman;

Do a search on this forum as there is a lot of discussion on this engine.

Question, Are you going to buy a short block or long block and assemble the engine yourself?


Image

Image
Don Ayers
1959 Riva Ariston
www.RivaForum.org
www.barrelback.com

User avatar
evansjw44
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:46 am
Location: Grosse Pointe Farms, MI

Cost

Post by evansjw44 » Sat Sep 25, 2010 5:39 pm

I have to wonder about $15K to rebuild two 430 Lincolns. You need a better machine shop. To save some cash consider pulling (or at least disconnecting them) yourself or with low cost help. Stripping the blocks of all the marine hardware is also something you could get some low cost help to do. You don't want to pay a high dollar machinist or a mechanic to do the simple stuff. I would guess a better number would be $3500 each to rebiuld a long block (block, crank, heads, bearings etc) and that is high but 430 Lincols are a bit out of the ordinary in terms of modern engines.
Jim Evans

User avatar
rpccc43
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:18 pm
Location: Irondequoit, NY

Post by rpccc43 » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:54 am

Good Morning Gents,

Thank you for your responses. To address some comments and questions. Matt, I have looked everywhere for rebuild kits specific to a CC 431 and have not been able to locate any. Can anyone address Matt's comment that the cam shaft would indeed be different?

I have in fact read all of the posts on this engine over the years...I initiated a few of them my self..but did not find the information. Don..by purchase a long or short block I assume you mean have the existing rebuilt using new parts? That's part of my dilemma, can I assume that the Lincoln rebuild kits that appear to be available ranging in price from $1300 to $2000 would be the ones used for the CC431? Any comments on the value of a short block rebuild vs a long block rebuild?

It is my intention to use inexpensive labor to tear down the engines and either rebuild the blocks myself (obviously some machine shop would be required)under the tutelage of an experience mechanic or to bring the blocks to a re-builder and then reassemble them with my helper and myself.

Jim, regarding the cost..the $7500 each was for a soup to nut restoration quoted from a local, well known engine shop (Drake) here in town. I have no idea what the short or long block would be but your number seems about right given the cost of the parts alone.

One final question..if I am going for a rebuild does it matter which two of the 4 I use? The engines in the boat have about 1800 hours on them. They run but not well. The ones out of the boat (identical to those in) have about 2600 hours on them and were allegedly running when they (Towers Marine) pulled them from the 64 Connie in Michigan.

Whew! Thank again guys.

Randman

User avatar
rpccc43
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:18 pm
Location: Irondequoit, NY

Post by rpccc43 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:32 pm

Hey guys,

Would anyone care to comment on the questions I have posed in my last post? Thanks

Randman

User avatar
evansjw44
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:46 am
Location: Grosse Pointe Farms, MI

Comments

Post by evansjw44 » Tue Sep 28, 2010 5:49 pm

I wouldn't do a short block. The 430 has what has what is called a "plank" cylinder head. That means the head is flat and the combustion chambers are actually in the cylinder bores rather than in the head like most engines. That's one of the things that makes the 430 odd. The 409 Chevy is that same sort of design. I wonder why. The deck is not square to the cylinder bores either and that makes it odd. Find a good builder that knows the quirks of this motor and get a long block done by a knowledgeable pro. They're strong engines and reworking the stringers et al to fit in a more modern is a lot of expensive work.
Jim Evans

User avatar
Don Ayers
Club Executive Team
Posts: 1681
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:05 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Post by Don Ayers » Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:38 pm

Jim is correct. See pics of this unique block and head design.

i personally (and I have done this myself) would go with a long block all done. The rest of the assembly is pretty straight forward save the odd ball dampener unit that the tranny connects with.

Also you did not mention if your HJ tranny's are in good shape or not. I would not recommend you try and rebuild those yourself as they are complicated. Not as simple as the HF-7 on the SBC's.

You are still going to want to run through your accessories and get everything up to spec. Why go to all this expense and trouble only to have a accessory like a started or water pump go south on you.
Only difference in 431 to 430 is the plumbing.

Try Van Ness for a quote on the long blocks, shop around and see what is out there. If you find someone with a super low price somethings up...

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image
Don Ayers
1959 Riva Ariston
www.RivaForum.org
www.barrelback.com

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:41 am

Good morning all, I am new to this club, although not new to CC boats or wooden boats in general. The MEL 430 is of special interest to me, and I have assembled a lot of information on this series of engines. I am currently building a FoMoCo marauder version of this engine for my 1965 21 foot Supersport.

The first key to understanding these engines is the combustion chamber design, and the subsequent piston design that with this particular series of engines. The combustion chamber in the 'Lincoln 430' is wedge shaped, given that the deck of the block is 10 degrees different to the bore. As a result, the piston is stepped at the upper part, or top, of the combustion chamber. The stepped piston was an ABSOLUTE INTEGRAL PART of design of this powerplant, and herein lies the problem: There is no modern replacement piston available with the proper step.

The Chris Craft piston was stepped as well, with a compression ratio of 8:1 for most of the marine versions, although not all. The only way to procure an oversize piston with the step is to have them custom manufactured by a piston maker who has that capacity. I had mine made by Wiseco Piston in a forged aluminum racing piston. I should mention again that using a generic flat top piston reduces this engine to quite mediocre performance, not in keeping with it's considerable racing heritage. I will post some pictures of my engine build sometime soon.

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:54 am

Here is an original piston from a 1959 CC 430HO. This was considered the 'High Output' 430, but I do not have a specific compression ratio for this engine.
Note the 'bumps' which would have raised the compression ratio a slight bit.

Image
Last edited by Peter M Jardine on Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Sun Mar 18, 2012 9:08 pm

Here is a Wiseco forged aluminum from their racing piston line. This piston in part was created from a custom computer spreadsheet that allowed us to look at the size of the step in relation to the combustion area. This piston is 9.625 to 1, considerably higher than the 8 to 1 pistons in later model 431 CC MEL engines

The goal here was to create a 431 with something close to the 400 hp Marauder edition that was offered in 1958. The MEL 430 was the first production V8 in North America to reach 400 HP.

Image

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:07 am

Further to some 430 History:

The 430/431 Chris craft motor is a Ford Motor company engine that was developed in the 1950's to provide a larger displacement higher horsepower engine for the bigger passenger cars in the Ford line. At this point in time, Mercury, Edsel and Lincoln was a combined division, and the 430 engine was part of the MEL series of engines. This line included the 383, 410, 430, and 462 engines, all of which had common engineering. Previous to this point, the Ford Y block family, which is also fairly well known to marine mechanics who deal with vintage engines, was the go to engine for Ford. This line included the 1954 239 cu in, the 256, 272, 292, and 312 cu in engine. The problem for Ford with this line of engines, despite their good performance in comparison to GM motors, is the design had limited ability within the casting to increase displacement. The MEL series of engines were the answer.

The MEL series of engines all featured a Y block inspired engine block, that is to say the skirt of the block was deep, and extended below the crankshaft bearings. The block was cast at the Lima Ohio casting plant. The combustion chamber was still in the cylinder, not the head, like later Ford and GM engines, and the block was decked 10 degrees difference to the bore, very much like the famous Chevy 409 engine which was introduced two years later.

A picture of a combustion chamber cross section is shown here:

Image

The combustion chamber design was extremely important to the performance of this engine, combined with a stepped piston that increased the speed the fuel mixture moved across the combustion chamber.

Here is a quote from an original 1958 Mercury maintenance manual:

The turbulence-top swirls the fuel mixture in a controlled direction at high speed assuring virtually complete combustion for finer performance of the engine. As the piston reaches the top of the compression stroke, the turbulence-top step drives into the narrowing wedge of the combustion chamber. The forced pressure jets the fuel-air mixture at a high velocity across the spark plug electrode, giving optimum combustion (source: 1958 Mercury Maintenance Manual).

For the use of this engine, the result was a broad flat torque curve, starting at very low rpms. The high horsepower, heavy construction and high torque figures also made this an ideal engine for marine use, certainly the reason the 430 was used so widely across the Chris Craft line, if only for a short time.

Here is a further explanation of this type of combustion chamber from an article on the Chevy 409:


"Unlike many of its contemporaries, the "W" combustion chamber was in the upper part of the cylinder, not the head, the latter having only tiny recesses for the valves. This arrangement was achieved by combining the use of a cylinder head deck that was not perpendicular to the bore with a crowned piston, a novel concept in American production engines of the day. As the piston approached top dead center, the angle of the crown combined with that of the head deck to form a wedge shaped combustion chamber with a pronounced quench area. The spark plug protruded vertically into this chamber, which tended to cause a rapidly moving flame front during combustion.

The theory behind this sort of arrangement is that maximum brake mean effective pressure is developed at relatively low engine speeds, resulting in an engine with a broad torque curve. With its relatively flat torque characteristics, the "W" engine was well-suited to propelling both trucks and the heavier cars that were in vogue in the USA at the time of the engine's development."





In 1958, the MEL 430 engine was announced with some fanfare by Ford. It was offered in a number of vehicles, and was optionally available with a "Marauder" package, the first use of this moniker by Ford. The engine was available with a cast aluminum manifold that featured three Holley 2300 series two barrel carburetors, and a specialized aluminum breather. The intake was cast by MOON specialties on the west coast for FoMoCo. With this modification the 430 was the first production V8 to reach 400 horspower. It became the engine of default for the Lincoln cars, and hence became known as the "Lincoln 430" more than it's formal designation.
The Marauder package, although legendary, was produced in very small quantities, allegedly around 1000 units, making the tripower components highly treasured by the MEL community.

Here is a original Ford Motor company 430 tripower manifold with Holley 2300 carburetors. This is a marine installation, with mechanical advance, and vintage Nicson beehive flame arrestors.

Image
Last edited by Peter M Jardine on Fri Mar 23, 2012 12:56 pm, edited 4 times in total.

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:01 am

When the MEL engine series was released, Chris Craft itself was eager to find a newer high horsepower engine for it's ever increasing line of models. While the Hercules line was still heavily used, it was antiquated, low in horsepower, and heavy. The new small block 283 from Chevrolet was working out well, but it had limitation in horsepower and torque that made it ill suited to larger boats. The 430 MEL engine was, from my research, introduced into the Chris Craft line in 1960 with a flourish. Despite the short production lifetime of the engine (1958-1965) it was heavily used by Chris Craft in that period in a wide range of boats ranging from the Holiday, Supersport, Continental, and Sportsman, all the way up to the 52 and 57 foot Constellation models.

Chris Craft would certainly have been cautious in adopting a new engine into their line of boats, given their consumer reputation for quality, but the 430 was quickly vetted in the marine and automobile industry. Bill Stroppe, who built and ran drag boats for Ford, ran 430 engines in marine application almost immediately after the engine was introduced. In 1959, Holman Moody campaigned 14 1959 Thunderbirds in Nascar. In the inaugural Daytona 500, a 1959 T-Bird, powered by a Holman Moody 430, and driven by Johnny Beauchamp, photofinished beside Lee Petty. The race was so close that it took officials 3 days to decide the winner... which was Petty.

A final bit of Nascar trivia is that the ponderously heavy front ends of the 430 powered T-Birds made them very hard to handle in the corners, and other drivers were terrified of the cars. :wink: However, the success of the 430 powered cars and boats helped vault Stroppe, Moody and Holman to the top of the Ford sponsored racing elite.

The 1960 introduction into the CC line used 1959 blocks and heads, which were labelled the 430HO, for high output. This designation was given based on the larger intake ports and valves of the original 1958 engine. Valve and port size, as well as compression was reduced on the later engines. The 10.5:1 compression ratio was moderated to approximately 8:1 so as to reduce detonation issues under load. Paragon provided transmissions, notably the HJAC and the HJ7, the former being a hydraulic forward AND reverse to accomodate the need for more power in reverse for larger boats versus the band based HJ series. The HJAC was expensive and heavy, but a more robust transmission. The HJ was subsequently used with the 427 and became the more popular choice in later years of 43O production.

One of the greatest accolades the 430 would earn in marine use came on a windy April day in 1960 when a 30 foot wooden prototype designed by a man named Ray Hunt,captained by a man named Richard Bertram and powered by MEL 430 engines, won the Miami-Naussau race in fierce conditions. I have been unable to confirm that these engines were Chris Craft conversions of the 430, but that would be likely, given the availability from Chris Craft. Sam Griffith, Richard Bertram's racing partner, may have had access to some of Bill Stroppe's gear, depending on FoMoCo's interest in being part of the race.
Last edited by Peter M Jardine on Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:48 am

Up to now, I have tried to outline the basis for the 430's brief but storied popularity as a marine engine in general, and specifically within the Chris Craft corporation. While I cannot comment on the total numbers of 430 and 431 engines actually used by Chris Craft, the engine was offered in over 50 models in it's lifetime with Chris craft, which was only 1960-1965 inclusive. If anyone knows of a 430 engine in a 1959 model Chris Craft, I would love to hear about it. As of this writing, I believe the 430 was offered first in 1960 models, so production was made available to CC in the fall of 1959. I have two early CC 430 engine blocks that support a September 1959 casting date.

There is enough archival information to know that Chris Craft's experience with the 430 was a positive one overall, but like everything, there are two sides to the coin. I would like to continue with problems that the 430 manifested over it's life time with CC, and the subsequent changes that were made, or what restorers have had to deal with in rebuilding this engine, and the problems exhibited by boats that have them as powerplants.

The first one to comment on is cooling and lubrication. As I've mentioned before, the 430 was cast at the Ford casting facility at Lima Ohio. These engines were sand cast engine blocks and all the subsequent problems with 1950's and early 60's castings accompany this engine. These are fairly porous iron blocks that have problems with oil galleries lining up perfectly, sand pockets in parts of the casting and so on. This has always led to sometimes troubled cooling and lubrication patterns in the block. Combine that with raw water cooling applications and the heavy load that marine engines are subjected to, and you have some issues.

When the CC 430 was first introduced, it was fitted with a combination generator and water pump, notably the 10360 series Sherwood pump with the twin impeller setup. This pump provides good volume and reliablility, but in large CC models, some cooling problems started to appear. The 430 engine has massive bearing surfaces: 2.9 inch main bearings, and 2.6 inch rod bearings. You're not going to break it, but those large bearing surfaces generate more heat, and the combination of low RPMS in the larger boats and the single pump resulted in some cooling issues. As a result CC (and Ford) made some changes in the cooling pattern, and the outside change was the addition of a secondary circulating pump on the 430, and the relabelling of the engine as a 431.The pump boss became a SKF bearing that continued to drive a 103060 sherwood as the raw water pump, and an alternator was substituted for the generator. At this point there were also some changes to heads, and piston shape and compression, but for the marine community, the additional water pump was a welcome change. My research shows the additional pump being added in 1963 models. It should be noted that these cooling improvements were made in automotive applications as well. At this point the 430 was available in the 1960s suicide door Lincoln Continental.

The lubrication issue was more problematic, and in those engines that exhibited problems with oil gallery size, blocks had to be specially machined to create the problem, or replaced entirely. Poor castings were not of epidemic proportion in this era, but they were not uncommon either. In the racing community, 430 engine blocks could be bored .100 over with no issue, or .40 over and hit a sand pocket. Now, sonic block testers can determine the integrity of a block before it is bored. Your engine builder should have the resources to inspect your engine block fully before proceeding.


The other issues with 430 engines are more common, and are found in numerous other engines of the era. Connecting rods that vary widely in weight, core shift on the block as they age, valve springs that weaken quickly, and so on. These are not specific to the 430 engine, but occur commonly as the engine aged.

All in all, this is as good an engine as was available in the late 50's, and has a reputation for long life, reliability, and incredible torque.

The marauder version of this engine in 1958 produced 400 horsepower, with 510 ft lbs of torque at 4000 rpm. Many big block engines of 20 years later didn't do much better. Anecdotately, it is said that CC staff felt the 430 powerplant was a solid performer, and they had few complaints.

Below is my 1965 21 foot Supersport being disassembled, with the 431 engine, numbers matching still in the boat. This engine has been preserved in it's entirety, and I am building a second motor. Note that this is the "thermocon" edition with the second water pump.
Image

A pair of early 430HO Chris Craft engines, with HJAC paragon transmissions and 2.5 to 1 paragon reduction gears. The HJAC tranny had hydraulic reverse. Parts for this transmission are no longer supported by Paragon. Note this an engine with generator and single 103060 water pump.
Image
Last edited by Peter M Jardine on Wed Apr 04, 2012 9:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Fri Mar 23, 2012 1:50 pm

I absolutely give you a STANDING OVATION for taking on the task of rebuilding the 430 and 431 engines. They are becoming more rare these days and it is such a pleasure to hear one barking (or howling) through big copper pipes.

Here is Mac McCreery and his 431 powered 38' Chris Craft Commander. The 431 was replaced by the 427 in model year 1966 (I have the #4 Commander Express with such power) but the big Lincolns at 275 horsepower each, were still able (with slightly different prop pitch and diameter) to achieve 31 miles per hour when tested, and CC never really varied from that claim when they changed to the 427 power. The big lincolns have a very good reputation, and the info you have shared is greatly appreciated and quite enlightning.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/ ... C00279.jpg

I heard from Curt Radford, who wrote some of the early articles on the fiberglass Commanders at the onset of the present craze, who also collected Lincolns, that they had to detune the big motors because they were torquing the chassis to the extent the doors would not close properly. The compression ratio at 8.0:1 is quite amazing, and it is similar to the 327F rationalso 8.0:1, following the formula of the day for longevity with a focus on torque.

I have a personal friend in Germany who runs the MEL technical forum internatioanly. If you need help contacting him directly for some uber-technical stuff, let me know but it is odd that some of the information treasure trove on this particular engine resides in German hands. He might be able to help you on some issues, but it sounds like you might be also able to contribute a lot to his database too.

http://ford-mel-engine.com/index.php

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v472/ ... 9a69b3.jpg


I was unaware that engines have core shift after they are cooled down from casting, as I understand FoMoCo used kilns to manage the cool down process slowly to avoid (or reduce) core shift in the casting process. Also this brings up the issue of torque plate, and I am not real sure where you would find a torque plate for one of these engines, but it would pay to search one out and here is why.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/6cLjdr2GSwU?rel=0


Good luck on your projects,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

User avatar
rpccc43
Posts: 229
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 2:18 pm
Location: Irondequoit, NY

Post by rpccc43 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:43 pm

Peter,

Thank you for taking the time to post the history of these engines. At the urging of Club members I decided to rebuild the ones in my '65 connie and one is in the shop now while they try to locate a cam shaft. As a hedge against rare parts I have 2 spares for a total of 4 of these monsters. Your information is invaluable and it's good to know that the rebuilding of them will be a good investment.

Paul,

Thank you for the link to the blog, also very helpful.

Randman

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Mar 23, 2012 3:46 pm

Paul, I post under the name Chris Craft Crazy on the MEL engine forum, which is fortunate to have Theo as the moderator.

I have Theo's torque plate as well. He bought it some years ago, but for shipping purposes didn't have it sent to Germany.


Randman, you can try Oregon Cams for your camshaft.

http://www.oregoncamshaft.com/

I too have a bunch of parts. I bought 4 complete engines, plus the one in the supersport, so I have plenty of parts. I also have the original tripower manifold, a set of Edelbrock watercooled exhaust manifolds, a set of Moon cast aluminum valve covers, and the engine has Wiseco slugs, and Harland sharp roller rockers. We're just about ready to put everything together.

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:14 pm

So on to the challenges of rebuilding a Chris Craft 430 in the modern day. Hopefully this section will make you and your engine builder aware of the issues surrounding a rebuild, and where possible, how to overcome those issues.

1. Pistons

I have been researching the 430 replacement parts market for about 2.5 years, and I have yet to come across an oversize cast aluminum stepped piston for the 430 engine. Many vintage parts supplier claim that they carry a 'OEM' style replacement piston, but all of them are flat top pistons. The reason for this is that the 430 engine changed compression ratio several times over it's life, which was already very short. As a result, piston manufacturers were hesitant to produce several sets of pistons. The downside of the flat piston is very real. The engine WILL NOT PERFORM to it's capacity with flat top pistons. It will run smoothly, but I would guess at a HP drop of at least 50 horsepower.

There are a few piston manufacturers that will custom cast a set of pistons for you, but it comes at a cost. Wiseco has produced several sets of forged aluminum pistons for the 430 such as the set I have for my engine. The cost with rings for a set of Wiseco pistons is about $1700 US.

2. Gasket sets

Marine gasket sets no longer exist for the Chris Craft 430 marine engine. The automotive set will be some help, but the head gaskets will be steel, so fibre head gaskets must be made. Olson Gaskets can do that for you

www.olsonsgaskets.com/

The rear gasket assembly that mates the transmission bellhousing to the timing cover end must be made, as well as the oil pan gasket, and the exhaust manifold gaskets. For those engine builders who choose to use blue silicon, and not knock down the manifolds and caustic clean them and bead blast them, welll... Carry on, you will mess up more things than that, and you aren't listening to me anyway.

Gasket material is available commercially in large sheets, and buying a 2X4 sheet is cheaper than buying a small quantity. It won't go bad. A set of hole punch and a sharp olfa cutter over a few evenings, and all your hard to find gaskets will be completed. I used nitrile rubber for my oil pan gasket.

3. Bearings

Clevite Mahl and TRW no longer produce oversize main and rod bearings for this engine.They do produce standard size bearings however (weird) Your only choice is either offshore bearings, which are now commonly used, or if you need a significant turning on the crank, it can be welded to add material, then reground to standard size. The disclaimer is this: These are nodular iron cranks, and they don't like to be welded to, and chroming the mains to add material is almost impossible. They absorb enough oil that chrome will not stick, and makes welding difficult.

The offshore bearings seem to be allright, and their quality is improving. I still don't like them.

3. Valve train

Chris Craft 430's use solid lifters, which are not made anymore, but you can get replacements. Pushrods can be bought as well as valve springs, guides and valves. Heads should have hardened seats put in on both sides, new guides, and new springs. The springs on a 50 year old motor will be all over the map on compressive strength, so replacement springs are a must.

The Ford FE series of engines also use a shaft mounter rocker arm, so a performance set of roller rockers are available still. I used Harland Sharp billet aluminum rockers, and cut down a set of solid spacers from an FE on the lathe, so the springs that keep the rockers in place are gone. There is less chance of valve deflection that way, and the roller rockers are a good upgrade. Some roller rockers will not fit under the stock valve covers so be careful with your choice.

The Camshaft deserves some mention. finding a new camshaft for a reverse rotation engine will be a little daunting, but look for a significant vintage camshaft grinder. If you send him your old cam shaft they should be able to duplicate it from a blank. Beware of hotrodding a 430 camshaft without looking at coil bind on the springs. Additional modification may be necessary to the valve train if you want a higher lift cam.

Here is a view of the heads with the Harland Sharp rockers, but with the stock shaft springs still installed. This was to acheive a mockup for valve cover clearance. The Moon products valve covers are in the background

Image
Last edited by Peter M Jardine on Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Mar 23, 2012 5:30 pm

5. Ignition

The 430 and 431 used a Mallory YL372 dual point distributor (if memory serves) and all ignition parts are still available. An electronic conversion kit also exists for these distributors, which would be a wise investment. All the regulators, plugs and ballast resistors are still readily available.

6. Cooling

The bronze transmission and oil coolers on the 430 were made by a industrial labratory supplier in Maryland. Good luck finding those if they're too corroded to refurbish. The water pumps are Sherwoods, and still have parts available.

Replacement parts for the exhaust manifolds are not available new any longer, so you must rely on salvage suppliers and parts collectors. I always recommend breaking down the manifolds completely, and thoroughly cleaning them before reassembly.

7. Fuel delivery

All components are available, but always check the length of the fuel pushrod. It runs off the camshaft eccentric, and it has a brass insert at one end. When that end gets worn, your fuel pump doesn't get a full stroke, and you get very little fuel delivery. The old flat head ford 239 had the same issue. A worn eccentric on the camshaft can sometimes occur, but it's fairly rare, since it requires a lot of hours to get that worn.

User avatar
Don Vogt
Club Executive Team
Posts: 853
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 4:51 pm
Location: seattle, wa

Post by Don Vogt » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:03 am

Thanks so much for sharing your very impressive expertise as to this engine. This is the sort of thing that makes the buzz such a fantastic resource!
1938 Chris Craft 17' Deluxe Runabout "Jennifer II"

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:11 pm

I will keep this thread fresh as I put the engine together. :wink:

I am going to add some archival pictures to this thread.


A 430 engine block stripped down. Note the enormous main bearings at 2.9 inches and the size of the casting... the sides of the block extend down past the bearings, giving the engine block strength.. this design gave rise to the nickname Y block.

Image

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:41 pm

The fuel pump rod... notice the small brass end on it... This is the end that wears on the camshaft, and if it is too worn.... NO FUEL to your engine. :wink:

Image

One additonal thing... it's resting on a 1958 Lincoln maintenance manual, which contains every known specification on the 430 engine. :shock:

Here is why you break down your exhaust manifolds and clean them up with caustic cleaning and glass bead blasting

Image

Image


Here is what they should look like after you clean the parts....

Image

Image

Image

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:46 pm

Most of you are familiar with a front and rear cover on a 283 flywheel forward, or the 431 engine. They are cast aluminum, and incorporate the engine legs.


This takes some time with the die grinder:

Image

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Mon Apr 02, 2012 7:51 pm

This is an extremely rare set of Edelbrock M4 water cooled manifolds for a 430 engine. They will be part of my current build.

Image

A set of Moon Products aluminum valve covers, which are now being produced again after a 35+ year hiatus.



Image

User avatar
Don Ayers
Club Executive Team
Posts: 1681
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:05 pm
Location: Oklahoma

Post by Don Ayers » Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:55 pm

I have a set of Nicson headers for the 430. They are pretty rare as well.

regards
Image
Don Ayers
1959 Riva Ariston
www.RivaForum.org
www.barrelback.com

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:07 pm

Don, I knew they existed, but that is only the second set I have ever seen a picture of. Nice.

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:25 pm

Peter M Jardine wrote:This is an extremely rare set of Edelbrock M4 water cooled manifolds for a 430 engine. They will be part of my current build.
Peter,

I love the hardware and your choice of aluminum on the MEL big dog, what fun. By the way Theo made me a moderator back on the MEL forum a long time ago but I don't have much to share with those guys due to very limited experience with that engine family, but I did what I could to give him support and help the forum grow (FEfinaticP). He is one of the "good guys" for sure.

Back to your choice of aluminum, very nice indeed, I love those Moon valve covers. I got a set of similar covers for my 427 project from Ansen who makes cast aluminum valve covers for most of the people out there today including Ford Motorsport and Shelby American. The Moons are beautiful, higher grade of finish, and I like the fact that they are a "no logo" piece of equipment.

I'm using Glenwood exhaust logs and risers, due to the fact that they are increasing in diameter and a true performance upgrade over the CC iron logs. Be sure and cut off your tips by the way, no need to choke the power band.

Image Image Image Image

Your system and the one Don posted of the Nicson logs appears to suggest they are two-way internal circulation, whereas the Glenwoods are not. Therefore it is necessary to feed the water from the rear dowhhill side of the Glenwoods to avoid air pockets and meltdown during the preheat stage. I actually drilled and tapped all the in and out ports on these Glenwoods to promote better flow. Now that the flow is very generous, I am able to regulat things by way of a custom regulated full time flow system supplemented by a thermostat in the event the motor ever reaches thermostat heat ranges. Testing will determin the actual t-stat temp range chosen and the diameter of tube and fittings to use for the full time flow feature to assure flow in the system. As noted earlier (and I trust you agree)...a boy has to have a hobby.
Image Image

If you elect to use aluminum free flow fittings like these, give me an email and I can share some things to watch out for, as all are not equal.

Image Image
The fittings I ended up using and had to wait a month to get (from Earls) were a true 3/4" and not the 5/8" you see in this photo above. My headers are one way flow. I also removed the Thermocon-Develvo system (removed the circulation pump) in favor of letting the sea water pump do it all. My system still employs a thermostat, pressure regulator valves, and full time flow in all parts of the exhaust, but I gain power and shed weight by doing this. It is a bit like the systems Interceptor used but better. :-)


My project is for a more contemporary Chris Craft application, and it is period correct but that is about all. In any case I am envious of your vintage big block MEL motor, congratulations again for doing this, it is going to make people look twice at boat shows, and I am sure the Cal Connell Cobra guys will be looking long and hard, with admiration.

best,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:48 pm

Thanks for that advice Paul, I am using Glenwood ends without the riser, and they have the water dump fitting in both sides, which I will need, based on the Thermocon cooling system. I am a little concerned with water restriction through the Edlebrocks, but I think it's academic in nature.I will take a look at engine heat when I test run the engine,and we may not use thermostats.

I don't want to use colored anodized fittings,because I'm trying to be extremely sensitive to vintage hotrod correct looks. Hardin make chrome plated bronze NPT to hose fittings, including upsize adaptors. I have spent a fair amount of looking around for appropriate finishes on fittings and hose, and for the most part I have narrowed down a lot of the choices.

We're just about ready to put the engine together, so I will put some pics up as we go.

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 591
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Wed Apr 04, 2012 11:14 am

Hi Peter,

you probably saw this but I hope you noticed the Glenwood ends you intend to use will (also) need be cut off to open them up like I did on my risers...that was the point in posting that (the tips are indentical, sized for small exhaust pipe, and then when cut off are able to use larger exhaust pipe).

Not sure what the stock exhaust is on your boat but with that motor and power you will need to use 3-1/2" exhaust hose for duals, or a single 4-1/2" pipe or you will be choking back the power.

I just wanted to be extra sure you didn't overlook the cutting mods you need to do on the ends of your exhaust system.

Regarding the sensitivity about the color of fittings, I understand perfectly. If my motor was going in your boat I would be doing the same.

Regards,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

Peter M Jardine
Posts: 697
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 10:27 am

Post by Peter M Jardine » Wed Apr 04, 2012 4:39 pm

Yes, they have the two collars, and I intend to cut off the smaller size.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests