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283 terminal failure - help

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boatdog
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283 terminal failure - help

Post by boatdog » Sun Jan 10, 2010 4:08 pm

Newbie here. The short story. I just finished up restoring a 17' CC Ski boat with a rebuilt (by someone else) 283. I was running a 13 x 13 prop. (I have since found out it should have been a 12 x 15.) The engine lasted less than 30 min before making a nasty metallic thunking noise and sending steam out the dipstick hole, from under the starboard valve cover, and out the oil fill hole. A boat yard has torn the engine down and noted the following. Everything appears to have had adequate oil supply. There were no hot spots noticed on the crank bearings. The rod bearings where destroyed. The piston skirts appeared to have scored the cylinder walls. The boat yard is suggesting the engine appears to have been "lugged" to death. My question is what could cause the lugging? Is the wrong prop size, a 13x13 vs a 12x15, that big a difference? Should I ask the boat yard to look for sources of internal engine friction like wrong piston ring clearance, wrong crank thrust washer sizing, etc. Any help? Please.

Take Time
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Post by Take Time » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:15 pm

Just a couple of questions. Was this the first run for the motor? Were all cylinder walls damaged? What RPM were you running at?

Rob

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Post by Don Ayers » Sun Jan 10, 2010 8:55 pm

IMHO, no way the prop did that.

Sometimes you just roll the dice when you do not know the complete history on a motor. On one of my previous boats the engine always idled a little rough. Could never understand it until I took the valve covers off for value adjustments and discovered two different heads. One of higher compression than the other!
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Post by boatdog » Sun Jan 10, 2010 9:22 pm

Take Time wrote:Just a couple of questions. Was this the first run for the motor? Were all cylinder walls damaged? What RPM were you running at?

Rob
The motor had been test run where it was rebuilt, but I do not know for how long. I started it up in my shop once it was installed in the boat and then immediately shut it down. On its maiden voyage from the boat ramp to our camp, I cycled the rpms slowly up and down, but was never able to get them above 2200. On subsequent test runs, again I was not able to cycle the rpms above 2200. I have not asked if all the cylider walls were damaged.

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Post by Wood Commander » Sun Jan 10, 2010 10:02 pm

See if any of the cam lobes and/or lifters are wiped out. Modern engine oil does not have some of additives needed for new engine break- in, like zinc for one. You need to get special break- in oil nowadays. Some diesel oils are good, and you can get zinc additives for regular oil too.

Newer engines use roller cams and lifters which have a much smoother and easier cam lobe- following action that does not require the extra goodies in the oil. But a solid or even hydraulic flat tappet has to have them, as well as a proper 20 minute, 2000 rpm (can be varied up and down a little) break- in run to keep them spinning sufficiently fast to "jump up" and rotate on top of the cam lobe, rather than digging into the cam lobe from the valve spring pressure. The lifters and cam load are the most highly loaded components so they usually fail first, but other things like the piston skirts could be hurtin' too if the pistons were set up tight. Different types and manufacturers of pistons can have different tolerance requirements too.

The lack of power sounds like a cam issue to me (as well as the piston scuffing to a little lesser degree). I agree that the prop probably wouldn't cause that much of a bog down in rpm.
Bret

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drrot
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Post by drrot » Mon Jan 11, 2010 8:49 am

I'll add to Bret's theory and say not only are pistons fit different but marine applications are usually fit looser because the engine runs cooler.

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Post by jahearne » Mon Jan 11, 2010 1:29 pm

Based on this conversation, I too would have to say that the pistons were too tight especially if all cylinder walls were scored. See if the cam has any scuffed lifters. The fact that all rod bearings and never get it over 2200 rpm suggests that the motor wasn't correctly built in the first place. The motor didn't run long enough to destroy it otherwise especially if it was getting sufficent oil.
John & Wendy

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Stovebolt
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Post by Stovebolt » Mon Jan 11, 2010 5:57 pm

I will agree with the previous posts. I bet if you miked the cam, you'll find that it's been flattened.

But also, check and see that the oil pump drive didn't break. If that happened you would have 0 psi. The rod bearings would be the first casualty, with the piston skirts a close second. You may have been lucky that the crank didn't lose it's bearings, but from what you are saying, it sounds like lack of oil pressure. Broken oil pump drive, wrong oil pump, whatever.

One other thing, it's to bad that the rods weren't tourqued before dismantling, because then you could see if that was the culprit.........mind you, the crank would have grenaded from the vibration of the rods, and the crank bearings would have been hamburger.

I'd put my money on oil pressure.
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Post by boatdog » Mon Jan 11, 2010 9:19 pm

This is all great info. I will talk with the boat yard this week and ask the advised questions. Thanks for the quick response

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Post by Gord » Mon Jan 18, 2010 11:34 am

Most definately an oiling problem, highly unlikely the pistons could be to tight, the bore is either correct or it isn't. If the bore was incorrect it quite simply would not of turned over at all. For the rod bearings to fail clearly indicates they were starved of oil. when they fail there is no way for the cylinder wall to get oil thats why there is scoring there.. Your problem is clearly related to the oiling system, probably the pump, or incorrect bearing clearance, possibly incorrectly installed cam bearings. normally the rod bearing clearance would be 1.5 to 2.5 thou, any less than 1.5 thou is too tight and the bearing would fail over 2.5 thou and the oil pressure would of been very low. In a failure like this the problem cascades creating the catastrophic loss, one bearing is to tight and as it fails it causes the cascade. I always plasti gauge every journal all the rods and all the mains,and fully blue print the engine. That means I check and record every single measurement with respect to the assembly. Many people including some machine shops check one or two journals only.
To solve the problem in the future insist the engine is blueprinted when assembled, I also go the exra step and make sure all my engines rotating assemblies are also balanced prior to assembly, on six cylinders I also have the cam balanced.
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Post by THE RAZZ » Tue Jan 19, 2010 12:59 am

CC overhaul manual called for pistons to be fit at .0045". Pistons fit too tight would probably seize in the first 20-minute. Fit too tight, they could keep the engine from turning more than 2200 rpm.

Note- CC service bulletin said a break in period is 2.5 hours minimum. CC said its broken in when the engine will roll over on its own a little when you release the starter (not running). It needs more break in if it stops immediately when you release the starter button (not starting).

Re break in oil- Joe Gibbs assembly grease and break in oil is a good place to start with your new overhaul.

Second choice - if you’re near a local airport, some FBOs will have Aero Shell mineral oil for the break in. (Regular oil is too slick and may prevent rings from seating properly)

Does this engine have an after market full flow oil filther?
If yes, triple check connections for proper flow direction (in is in and out is out) An after market external oil filther hooked up backwards will cause oil starvation to the engine and destroy it in short order.
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Oil Flow

Post by evansjw44 » Tue Jan 19, 2010 8:03 am

The after market and the CC filter installation can both starve oil flow. The spin on filters have a check valve in them that block oil flow in one direction. I hade an original CC installed oil filter set up that was piped backwards on one engine -- not both. When there wasn't a check valve in the filter it didn't matter but once check valves appeared in filter you could have a problem. Depending on where the oil pressure sender is tapped you might not notice the lack of oil pressure. If the filter by-passes you might not have enough oil flow to keep from wiping the bearing etc.
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Post by THE RAZZ » Tue Jan 19, 2010 10:52 am

Jim's point about new filter's check valves is something to check right away.
Rule 1- double-check the simple obvious things first.
And, double check external oil pipes (if you have any on this 283) and determine they aren't hooked up backwards.

Suggestion- if the new (rebuilt) engine has a full flow filter, find the return fitting on the block and undo it. With a lot of rags, crank the engine (not starting) until you get a visual on oil flow. Reattach and then go through initial start up. Better safe than sorry.
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1987 21' CC Stinger

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