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Keel Replacement

Framing, planking and fairing. Repair, or reconstruction. If it's hull related, you'll find it here.

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jfrprops
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Post by jfrprops » Tue Feb 21, 2012 11:41 pm

Gary has some good points there!
except for the Gudgeon Goop.(epoxy)...as always...lol!
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
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dilda02
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keel replacement

Post by dilda02 » Fri Feb 24, 2012 11:03 pm

Hi Folks,
Well, I started cutting another keel board the other night - the smaller bow section. The results were not good...

Image

As you can see, the board warped as soon as I made the cut. It deflected by about 4-5" at the initial point of the cut, rendering the board worthless. My template didn't even come close to matching the pattern I'd transcribed onto it.

So, what to do??? I figure I have a couple of options:

a) Go buy more wood and hope I can find myself a dimensionally stable board.
b) Scrap my current plan, cut-up my bogus boards into 3/4" stripds and go back to building a single 1-piece laminated keel.
c) Same as plan 'b' but build 3 laminated pieces.

At the moment I'm leaning towards option 'c', since I'm still faced with logistical problems finding a 32 foot heated space to do my build. I'd use resorcinol as per my original plan.
As always, all thoughts/suggestions are welcome.
Thanks,
Dave

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maritimeclassics
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Post by maritimeclassics » Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:52 am

Well that's a bummer but it does not surprise me, with the way wood is kiln dried and then cutting oak when its thick does some crazy stuff. At this point to use the wood you have I would cut it in to 1 inch strips and laminate each piece gluing with west system epoxy, then cut out each part. I would not use resorcinol, I would bet in 2-5 years you would be very upset when the wood comes apart. There is a reason that most or all of the professional boat builders today use epoxy (like Van Dam). Oak is hard enough to glue because of its dense properties, so if you chose to glue it rough the wood up with 80 grit before you glue each piece. Go by the book by applying the epoxy to both pieces then mix the epoxy with micro-balloons and apply to one side. Then clamp it together but not really tight. I would also not build it in one piece and would build it like it came of the boat and then through bolt them to the boat when done, it will be easier to deal with the keel in parts then one big piece. That's my 2 cents.
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Worth Considering

Post by evansjw44 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:14 am

I haven't done this on a big piece of oak but you could consider soaking it for a week or so in the lake river what all then pull it out and clamp it into the correct shape and let it dry slowly. I had to do that to fit new rub rails on my skiff.
Jim Evans

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Post by jfrprops » Sat Feb 25, 2012 6:37 pm

I agree with Jim, with the time and $ invested to date, I would try soaking and weighting, bending, FORCING, that timber.

As to the epoxy laminate.....I still would not give "2 cents" for anything other than 5200 in that application.

Just my bias showing....

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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maritimeclassics
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Post by maritimeclassics » Sat Feb 25, 2012 7:23 pm

Soaking may work for the smaller piece but I would think that you can just suck it up when bolting it in place. The larger thick piece may be hard to get enough moisture in it to bend it. 5200 is not a glue it should be used to bed wood not glue it together under water for a long time.
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Owner of Maritime Classics
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Ph# 231-486-6148

Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout

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Post by jfrprops » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:19 pm

Beg to differ. "Glue" may not be the word I would use for 5200 either...but if I wanted two pieces of almost anything to be bonded together, in a not entirely rigid way...some slight "give"...I would use 5200 every time. I know from long experience that you will rip the wood apart before the joint on the 5200 and the Gugeon Goop will split along the grain of the wood joint just like splitting firewood. Depend on what you want to do I guess.
On the skeg, I would find to well spaced trees, wedge it in between them with the fulcrum point near the needed bend spot and add pressure with a comealong to another tree...all of this after soaking in the pond for a couple of weeks. But then, I am too old school and set in my ways....cruiser guys just are different.
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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dilda02
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keel replacement

Post by dilda02 » Wed Feb 29, 2012 12:43 am

Hi Folks,
Thanks for all your posts. Fear of delamination is very troubling to me. I DON'T want to repeat this task a few years from now. Given all the considerations, I've decided to continue my efforts to build a solid 3-piece keel. I chucked the portion of the board that warped the worst, but I was able to use the remaining larger piece to build the smallest (bow) keel board. I'll need to buy more wood at this point (to fabricate 1 remaining center-section keel board), but I figured this is my best option.
Moving forward,
Dave

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Post by jfrprops » Wed Feb 29, 2012 9:44 am

agree Dave, moving forward is the thing to do...
best of luck,

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Post by mcisaac inc » Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:18 pm

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: 3M5200 is not an adhesive! since when....................markmcisaacinc.com
Last edited by mcisaac inc on Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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maritimeclassics
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Post by maritimeclassics » Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:56 am

Dave, I think you made the right choice and I hope this next attempt goes well for you. As for the other comments on gluing, bonding or adhering I don't want to get into the drama on how things should be done. I think we are here to help one another and that's all I am trying to do. With that said, I use 5200 almost weekly but I would never use it to laminate a keel, that's all.
Family member of Chris Craft founder
Owner of Maritime Classics
http://www.maritimeclassics.com
Ph# 231-486-6148

Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout

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dilda02
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Keel replacement

Post by dilda02 » Thu Mar 01, 2012 12:06 pm

Thanks Mike,
There's certainly a lot of debate over the best way to bond white oak, both on this forum and at other locations. This is the primary reason for my decision to continue in the manner I have chosen.
I appreciate your continued help & posts, as I do all the others I've received.
Thanks again,
Dave

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Post by Captain Nemo » Thu Mar 01, 2012 5:30 pm

I too, would avoid trying to laminate something like this. When you go back to the sawmill, see if you can get get a hunk that is quarter-sawn, vertical grain. It might cost more if they can get it at all. At least get a piece with a minimum of flat grain will help make your life easier.
Boats are to be made of wood, otherwise, God would have grown fiberglass trees.

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dilda02
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Keel Replacement

Post by dilda02 » Wed Mar 21, 2012 4:56 pm

Hi Folks,
Thought I'd give you an update of my recent progress... I bought myself another big ole hunk of white oak from another sawmill in the area. My friends at Pike & Sons had nothing for me, but I managed to find a good tree at Copeland Sawmill in Marshfield, MA... Good place, nice folks. Got it home, planed it (ugh, not fun), and trimed it to size. And the result:

Image

It maintained its shape... Yeah!!! I sealed it up with CPES (as advised) and test-fitted the 3 sections of the keel on my driveway the other day:

Image

It all fit together pretty well. Meanwhile, down at the boat, I've been working on prepping the inner hull and keelson. As discussed earlier, I impregnated the inner hull, keelson & stringers with about 3 gallons of CPES. I then bedded the plywood to the keelson with 5200. 'Many' hours were spent plugging all the old screw holes with hardwood dowels (also impregnated with CPES). I glued these in place with West System:

Image

I surface-coated the plywood with a thin layer of thickened West System, to fill in places where the old wood had checked, split, or incurred other damage. Finally, I finished up the prep work with a coat of paint:

Image

I think I'm finally ready to start replanking. I have the new mahogany lumber sitting in my garage, alongside the old planks (removed intact). I spent about $400 on SB screws the other day. Anyone have any advice for a newbie boat restorer attempting to replace his garboard planks?
Thanks as always,
Dave[/img]

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Post by Peter M Jardine » Wed Mar 21, 2012 9:46 pm

Dave, glad to see you have made progress on your keel... looks great.

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dilda02
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Keel Replacement

Post by dilda02 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 11:49 am

Thanks Peter... I'm getting there (slowly).

Do you (or any others) have a recommendation for the amount of gap that I should leave between my new garboard planks and the adjacent planks? My garboards are 7" wide, and I'm thinking that I don't want to make these things "too" tight. The new (African Mahogany) garboard planks are kiln dried (not sure of the exact moisture content at present). I'm thinking I should leave about 1/8" (which will be filled with non-drying caulking material) to allow for expansion. Does that sound right?
Thanks,
Dave

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Post by Capn Taz » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:11 pm

Dave

I am a newbie to the whole wood boat thing and learning fast from the experts here when it comes to the construction of these beasts. With that said, I have been told the best thing to use for filling seams like this is "slick seam". It will push out when the board swells and not harm anything. I would not suggest caulk, I have heard many horror stories relates to "caulking plank seams".

So far, any work I have had to do with gaps on boards has been treated this way and has worked well.

Good luck,

Todd
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW What a Ride!'"

Just purchased my first Chris, 1959 conqueror - It's going to be an interesting ride!

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dilda02
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Keel Replacement

Post by dilda02 » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:28 pm

Hi Todd,
I've used slick seam for many years, and I don't really like it. The caulk I was referring to is specifically made for seaming planks. It stays pliable for weeks (while the planks swell), but will eventually dry up and allow for subsequent sanding during the next season. Slick seam will gum-up your sandpaper for years to come.
Dave

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Post by mfine » Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:50 pm

Dave what kind of caulk do you plan to use?

I am sure you will get better answers, but I would measure a bunch of scraps of your wood and then soak them in a bucket for 2-3 days and measure again. Maybe let them soak a few more days a re-measure until you get a good idea of how far your wood will expand given its current starting moisture content.

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Post by Capn Taz » Fri Mar 30, 2012 7:42 am

Dave

I have never heard of such a caulk. Could you share the name and or brand of it. I'm always happy to learn something new.
"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming 'WOW What a Ride!'"

Just purchased my first Chris, 1959 conqueror - It's going to be an interesting ride!

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Post by Peter M Jardine » Fri Mar 30, 2012 9:13 pm

Kiln dried will take a bit to fully swell. Steaming them would help, and so would soaking them. I think you need better than 1/4 with kiln dried, I would welcome other comments.

Sikaflex or boatlife both make caulk that is suitable for close seams boats. The traditional treatment would be interlux seam compound.

Slick seam is typically used to caulk a seam that you know will take up when the boat is wet. It is not intended as a long term caulking.

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dilda02
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Keel Replacement

Post by dilda02 » Sat Mar 31, 2012 10:14 pm

Todd,
I use seaming compound as Peter indicates. I'm afraid I don't have the exact product number at the moment. I'll try to get it the next time I'm down at the boat.
I found some information on the Wood Database web site. The site reports that african mahogany has a shrinkage ratio of 3.7% across the grain (see: http://www.wood-database.com/lumber-ide ... -mahogany/). Given that my planks are 7" wide, I figure:
7" = 56/8"
56 * .037 = 2.072
So, 1/8" gap on each side of my new garboards should be about right. This roughly matches the gaps I see between my existing planks.
Dave

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dilda02
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Keel Replacement

Post by dilda02 » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Hi Everyone,
Well, I've got my garboard planks prepped (that is, cut and sealed with CPES):

Image

And I've got them onto the boat:

Image

They came together pretty well. I managed to hit all the stringers and all the screws pulled up nice and tight.

So this weekend started to dry-fit the keel on the boat. I put all 3 sections in place and blocked them up tight using wedges. The keel mated well to the keelson, and the scarf joints came together great. However... (you knew this was coming), looking at the keel from the bow (or stern), the keel is once again showing a slight tilt to port at it's lowest point. Note that this is the the same tilt that was noted with the old keel (although the problem with the old keel was more substantial). I measured the distance from the base ofthe keel to the chine on each side, and I noted about a 1" differential, confirming the tilt to port. I tried to correct the problem by banging the lowest portion over to starboard, but it really resisted my efforts (note that during this time I had it wedged up to keelson with pretty tight, but not so tight that I shouldn't be able to move the bottom of it around a bit given good force). Now, I know I cut the top section of the keel at a clean 90 degree angle (I checked it repeatedly), sooo... I'm thinking that my keelson itself must have a slight tilt to port.

So, what do I do...
a) Bag the difference and just bolt the new keel onto the boat.
b) Pull it down and shave a slight bit off of the top-starboard side of the keel, so thait hangs straight.
c) Some other option?

I'm kind-of leaning towards plan 'b'... It'll be more work but I think I really want this thing hanging straight down. I'd love to hear other thoughts & opinions. If I should decide to shave the top starboard portion off the top of the keel, how much should I take it down? Maybe about 1/16"??? Note that my keel is about 13" deep at its deepest point (where I'm taking my measurement).

Once I get this done I need to drill out the keelbolt holes... I'm thinking I'm going to again put the keel up in place and then start the drilling process from within the boat, from the top down. I should be able to start the holes this way, or at least mark the holes this way. I can then finish the drilling process when I take the keel down. The keelbolts are 3/8" silicon bronze. I think I need to drill the holes a bit larger. Is 7/16" too big? Should I go to 13/32"? Is there anyplace I can get a looong drill bit in this size?

Lastly, I'm thinking of using dolphinite to bed the keel to the keelson. I had planned on using 3M's 101 (because it's so easy to dispense), but I don't think it's available anymore.
Any thought on this???

Thanks once again for all your help and advice,
Dave

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Post by jfrprops » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:32 am

Either plan A or B will likely work ok. This is no big deal in my opinion anyway...this is more of a skeg than a keel.
I would consider bedding in boatlife.
electrician bit will do that drilling...thought that is small for their work. Extension bit will be too fat for the hole....worse case: weld a bit to a blank.
I guess you are still at a point where you could drill from inside out...but if that skeg is canted a bit etc....it is going to be really critical that you don't get off line and bust out the side of it instead of the bottom.
And I think 7/16 is too big.
Would plugging the original holes and drilling the skeg on the bench after careful measurement...then drilling new holes through from the bottom work?
That would be my approach...lineup is scary otherwise.
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Post by maritimeclassics » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:47 am

I would take some off the keel and some off the skeg as not to take to much materiel off the the keel if needed. Then brace the keel in place like you had it and drill with a 3/8 bit as far as you could with a long bit. Then take the skeg off and on the bench put the drill back in each hole and use a straight edge to draw a line on the skeg to the bottom of the skeg so you can center the hole on the bottom. Drill from the bottom to join the holes using the line and a straight edge. Then use dolphinite of Life caulk to bed.
Family member of Chris Craft founder
Owner of Maritime Classics
http://www.maritimeclassics.com
Ph# 231-486-6148

Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout

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dilda02
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Keel Replacement

Post by dilda02 » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:16 pm

Thanks John and Mike... I'm planning to go down to the boat tomorrow and see if I can 'tweak' the dry-fit of my keel. I'm going to plane a slight bevel in the top of the new skeg so that I can get it to hang straight. I'm going to use a little sample piece to determine the angle of the bevel I'll need to cut.

I'm certain that the keelbolt holes were originally drilled from the inside out. I'm planning to start the process this way too, and finish the drilling once I drop the new keel/skeg.

I agree that 7/16" is too big... I'm thinking I'm going to go with 13/32. Does anyone have a suggestion for the type of drill bit I should use? Spade, split-tip, forstner, auger? I'm having trouble finding a real long bits in the size I need. Let me know if you have any suggestions for sources.

Thanks as always,
Dave

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maritimeclassics
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Post by maritimeclassics » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:06 am

I would not oversize your holes for the bolts. Just use a 3/8 drill bit and use a pecking method (pulling the drill bit up and down to clean the bit) as you go. By the time you get the hole drilled and cleaned all the way through the bolt should drop right through. If not a few taps from a hammer is all that you should need. Keeping the bolts somewhat tight in the hole is always the best option for wood.
Family member of Chris Craft founder
Owner of Maritime Classics
http://www.maritimeclassics.com
Ph# 231-486-6148

Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout

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Post by jfrprops » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:57 pm

yes, If you can the advice in the post just prior is the best,

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Post by SJHanson » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:31 am

Dave - You might search for a "ship's auger". Irwin (and others) have a 3/8" X 17" long auger bit available. Good luck.

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Post by quitchabitchin » Thu Apr 19, 2012 9:26 pm

Yes, an auger bit would be the way to go. Same size as the bolts, clean the holes and it will be snug but will fit. You don't want them too big.
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