uh Oh!

aliwildatwork · Post by **aliwildatwork** » Thu Sep 29, 2011 9:42 pm

Fly wheel is forward on new "Old" engine...yes alternator, old carb, old dist. however parts boat was a 66, research indicates block manufactured from 68 onward thru 79. What I heard about the parts boat before it went on the hard was that it sunk...insurance paid for complete rebuild, owner sold it to GUY, lake dropped, GUY left it on the hard until eventually stopped paying Marina, went to auction twice, first time GUY paid balance, second time I bought it...been a rough year for everyone.

Getting even more confused the more I learn, or want to learn. What's an "f"

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 7:57 am

The F is a flywheel forward, not familiar with the SBC label. Wish I knew more about engines but can't help. Jim's the man for that (if we can get him to translate to english).

doubleboater · Post by **doubleboater** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:18 am

SBC--small block chevy 305 small blk not sure about 327's or 350's usually theyare smalls 400's and above are usually big blocks 454's 455's ford 460's GM 501+

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:59 am

Thanks Jeff,

Now I'll go back to Jim's post and see if that helps understand it. (didn't help).

evansjw44 · Post by **evansjw44** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:52 pm

I'm not a Chevy guy. But, SBC just means Small Block Chevy. They are every where as I have posted. Even in vintage FORDS. They started life in 1955 as 265 cid, grew to 283 as an option by '59 or so, grew to variations like 327, 305, 302, 350, 383 and 400 cid with varous modifications.

They have a long history but remained almost interchangeable until the '70s (User be ware) and are now built in MEX.

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Fri Sep 30, 2011 9:58 pm

Thanks Jim, that helps a little. Now to Ali's 350 SBC; why is it not suitable in her boat as is? The flywheel appears to be on the forward end, isn't it? Is it that it would have too much power? I'm just not following something that must be obvious to you from the photos that's not registering with me and don't know what it is.

I'm very sorry for being a bother but I'm still trying to figure it out.

Captain Nemo · Post by **Captain Nemo** » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:27 am

The replacement engine does appear to be flywheel fwd. If Ali's toasted engine was fwd also it should drop right in. You end up dealing w/ engine height and angle changing from fwd to aft flywheel. Which isn't worth the headaches.
-Mark

aliwildatwork · Post by **aliwildatwork** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:30 am

Old engine was flywheel aft, new one forward...haven't talked to the guys as of yesterday but last word was that it is indeed in and wiring is next, or was on Friday. They took the blocks out of the old boat to get the angle right, they were connected with beautiful brass carriage bolts, I think there were some shims too... I'll keep everyone posted as get more info. I haven't heard anything about prop conflict, or height issues as of yet. Only thing so far was the distributor didn't swap so I will have to be satisfied with points for now. (I'll live) I still don't understand the engine block thing, is my new engine a 350 or a 283? Where do I look other than the casting numbers? Did someone just use the old valve covers? BABY STEPS. I can imagine mine was not the only boat to undergo many modifications over the years and certainly there are more "Bills" out there than there are Chris Craft purists, especially here in the South where these old cruisers aren't valued very highly. Maybe I'll get in touch with the old owner who sold it to the "guy" who let is go to auction. ALI

Captain Nemo · Post by **Captain Nemo** » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:08 am

It's good to hear it went in

. I, myself would prefer standard points in the dist. I'm more old school though.
The prop might be OK. Just run it and see how it goes. If anything you might have to go up an inch on the pitch if you get too many RPM's. Was there a prop on the parts boat? If it is good you might want to use that one.
-Mark

Kade06 · Post by **Kade06** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:33 am

Ali,
As far as the 283 to 350 goes I dont see you having a problem. My 65 27foot cavalier is the same way. When my Dad bought the boat in 80 he thought it had a the 283 in it. Well he blew that engine up trying to get back to a pay phone ( this was before cell phones). When he went to rebuild it he found out it was a 350 and went back with a rebuilt 350. That engine has been in there ever since (around 1984) and has been great. Has all the original chris craft conversion. She'll plane in twice her length and has no problems with the upgrade that we have ever noticed. Just my 2 cents.
Kristian

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:46 am

Kade06: those are impressive performance numbers!
John in Va.

Kade06 · Post by **Kade06** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:50 am

Thtat's what Dad said and he's been known to exaggerate. However I don't feel like testing his thoughts on the subject. Cruisers are for cruising just nice to know its there if you need it.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:08 am

Kade06,

I knew those were old numbers when you mentioned the payphone!!!! lol...

John in Va.

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:23 am

Well, it's nice to have a little extra oomph when you see a thunderstorm coming your way or need to get out of the way of a large boat, or your wife calls and reminds you that you promised to mow the lawn today (Oops, get on plane and head for the dock).

aliwildatwork · Post by **aliwildatwork** » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:39 pm

Thanks for the thumbs up! I spent about 7 mins at the marina this morning before hitting traffic back to an appointment...will spend some more time talking shop with the fellas when time permits. Until then... it was a 350 that blew so the better engine repowered or not, 350 or 285 is not a question, its what I have and i just want to get back on the lake.

I am curious, I do want to learn, I am grateful for thee info everyone shares. i was really excited to re-install what I thought was an original CC engine but I have lots to learn. baby steps.

aliwildatwork · Post by **aliwildatwork** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 6:14 am

Last night I caught a repeat of NCIS and the villian was rumored to be staying on a an 80 yacht down at the Marina, when they went to look for him you could make out Chris-craft on the bow, the ship was gorgeous...Does any one know the boat? The show is set in DC so the boat should be on the east coast somewhere but with the magic of TV it could be anywhere. 80 feet? Did they really make one that big? What is it?

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:28 am

They built a 74' Chris-Craft Roamer with aluminum hull but I don't think they had anything longer than that. With the magic of TV they could have made one pass for an 80' yacht.

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Thu Oct 06, 2011 8:54 am

Back to the engine thing for a minute. The one that just came out was flywheel aft, right? The new (old) CC 350 that's going in is flywheel forward. Was the original engine a flywheel aft too, as in a CC 327Q?

This just clicked and I think I'm beginning to see Jim's earlier point, if the above is true (and a CC 327Q is FW-aft and was the original power). Am I getting it, Jim?

aliwildatwork · Post by **aliwildatwork** » Mon Oct 10, 2011 6:20 am

Been dodging acorns all weekend... Went to the lake, saw the boat, engine is in, still in shop?????????$%&#@! Definately flywheel forward. All the gauges are wired now, that's cool. Couldn't use distributor or carbon off other engine, gonna sell them probably on site. Don't know if I will make the boat show in madisonville either...

aliwildatwork · Post by **aliwildatwork** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 5:27 am

So a funny thing happened when we took the boat to the ramp yesterday...Water came rushing in through the bronze piece at the prop shaft that is mounted to the keel just below the fresh water tank. We pulled her back out, took up the floor, removed the tank and loosened all the screws. The piece had been glued down with some sort of silicone adhesive in the past, and moved forward an inch. The old screw holes have the same goo inside of them but most of the adhesive was loose and the screws weren't very tight (original bronze) as a matter of fact, two were missing. So...either the orange cleaner I used to clean the bilge ate through the adhesive or while aligning the engine/trans and prop shaft it was shifted. Either way water rushing in is no good. New plan is to clean area VERY well, remove all the goo, sand a little, clean with acetone and reseat bronze piece with something like 3m 4000 and larger screws.

While waiting for hell to freeze over I mean for the shop guys to finish up, I took the prop and shaft off the other boat and compared the size of the prop to the one on our boat. The other boat's prop was bigger, slightly more curve to the blade and probably original to the boat so I swapped it with some help from Danny and the prop tool. I left the stainless prop shaft on the boat but stuck the bronze shaft in the car for the pile of CC stuff in the garage. The rudders are the same so I won't bother with changing them.

Had to use the throttle cable from the other boat and switch the trans plates for the shifter cable as the newer engine had a different configuration. Only a few things left to fiddle with...wish the waste tank wasn't full on the other boat, I'd like to have it instead of the thing on ours, just don't know how to get a full tank off safely without a mess.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:38 am

ali,
so your shaft log was leaking?
No too good.(also, as I have posted here before (archive?) you could have a worn out shaftlog lip, caused by the engine dropping down over time causing the drive shaft to rub away the bottor edge of the log). Careful checking that with fingers, could be razor sharp!
Position of the shaft log, port and starboard, fore and aft, really has a big impact on alignment and fit.
It sounds like the log (bronze thing the shaft comes through..) has been repositioned in the past. Maybe because of issues related to a previous engine swap...though the mounts are usually identical for SBC engines. ?? Getting the log in firm, tight, and in alignment is very important. You need to get the log back close to its original position..if the holes are worn, through bolting, as you suggest, is the way to go....just bed the log in 4200 or such, boatlife would be ok too...but then you must get the engine and the cutlass bearing in alignment too. This is a lot of trial and error, not brain surgery, but important. Get it done.
John in Va.

Ken Miller · Post by **Ken Miller** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 11:48 am

Ali,

Notice above one of the few posts from John in Va. which does not end in "just go boating!" or "just get out there!". Make sure you get that shaft log either into the exact place it was before OR in the exact place it needs to be with your new engine, and make sure once all is tight your alignment is within.003 (three one thousandths). I hear you about Hell freezing over, but you'll regret it later if you get out there too soon and every minute you are turning that shaft you are scoring or otherwise damaging your drive hardware. Get it done then go boating, LOL.

Ken Miller

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 1:37 pm

Sure Ken, "let's go boating"...FOR SURE!

But if you, Ali, or I, wait until you get to .003 alignment, you will be forever at the dock! lol.
The boat will change shape/alignment more than that just because you take on a full tank of gas or haul a pair of Big Mac lovers.
Still recommend previous detailed post archived on this subject of shaft log/alignment.

John in Va.

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 3:40 pm

I have a friend here with a 30' Cavalier who uses it all summer lonng for short cruises around Pool 26. Once a year he cruises to Quincy for our boat show there, about 100 miles each way.

Last year his shaft broke just below the coupling after cruising about 50 miles the first day out. It was trailered home for repairs (new steel shaft). This year on the same trip he made it all the way to Quincy but as he was shifting into reverse at low RPM another shaft broke in the same place.

This time he had a friend make a new shaft and deliver it to Quincy. The boat was hauled out Sunday morning (using the Braaf's trailer) and the new shaft was installed. The boat was launched within a few minutes (the Braaf's needed their trailer back). It was immediately obvious that there was a problem with alignment.

When she was brought to the dock they double checked the engine alignment and started adjusting the mounts until it was good to go. The mechanic said the alignment was the probable cause for the other 2 shafts to fail.

He said the shaft was being stressed at the coupling. His theory was that short trips wouldn't cause enough heat for it to shear but was enough when pressuring it all day to heat and, thus, shear.

The Braaf's, Bob & Chris Ann brought their 1957, 28' Chris-Craft Sedan with Fly Bridge on from Colorado on the trailer that James borrowed Sunday morning. James was lucky to have a trailer so handy for the repair.

So close alignment sounds kind of important for the long haul.

aliwildatwork · Post by **aliwildatwork** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:12 pm

I guess my question is ....Can it be in alignment without that strut/housing attached? The prop, log, and boot/strut below the waterline haven't changed, just the bronze piece the log travels through where the rubber boot (short piece of tubing attached to boot and to packing area). We loosened it (bronze piece), it seemed to be free of any restrictions, free play over the shaft log, seems like a new glue and set would be simple...Right? When I asked Danny what do we do now, he just said fix it! When I wanted to swap the prop and log he said..Ali you don't know how long and hard it was to get everything into alignment...(went for prop only) I feel pretty confident that Danny wouldn't let me go out ((boating) without the right settings...He's "Old School", knows every inch of the lake, can hear things in motors other people use expensive instruments to find, doesn't care much for wooden boats but loves my new engine, even has "snap on" socks, a real goober in the best way...Danny isn't the owner of the shop and he's certainly not getting the hourly wage they charge me for labor...BUT could it be in alignment even though that housing/guide/shaft/strut thingy needs to be re-set? Seems reasonable to me...but so did Bill (who sold me the boat).

Read an awful article about anodes especially when boat has stainless and bronze fasteners throughout the hull, mostly about saltwater and brackish water...end story- it explains why boats sink in their slips. OH THE AGONY!

Al Benton · Post by **Al Benton** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 4:38 pm

As I understand it the shaft log doesn't play a big roll in proper alignment, it's just a housing that can be sealed around the shaft and the boat bottom to keep water out. So the engine can be properly aligned with the shaft while the shaft log isn't sealed and screwed down.

My shaft log was refastened with through bolts, the original screws corroded and were coming loose. All the work was done without detaching the shaft.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:50 pm

Ali
I/we are having a problem with TERMS here?????
Al and I seem to be on the same wavelength...but not sure we are with YOU.
A pic would help.
from the prop forward...all of these related to alignment: Cutlass bearing (not much), shaft log (danger of shaft RUBBING and thus leaking if not PRETTY CLOSE to aligned), Stuffing box....hose goes on shaft log end inside the hull, then to the GLANS that has the packing material in it (alignment here important but not anywhere near micro settings. This sounds like what you are now talking about??)..then finally the COUPLING...very important that the two faces of the coupling,...the one on the end of the driveshaft and the one on the end of the transmission...are PRETTY DARN CLOSE...but forget feeler guages on these old boats...my opinion/experience). Also crucial: torgue down the set screws holding the shaft in the coupling so it does not pull out on a too fast shift to reverse.....IF you don't GET THIS...just ask more John in Va. Go Boating....I am...

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Wed Oct 12, 2011 8:53 pm

Further to Ali:
Don't get in a sweat about the fasteners deal...stainless is only a problem when denied oxegen etc. And salt water is the friend of wooden boats, not the metal parts...but you can replace/protect those....
Get on the water, don't worry about the water...until the carpet in the salon starts to float!!!
John in Va.

aliwildatwork · Post by **aliwildatwork** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 5:13 am

It was the shaft log that was ill attached and water rushing in from there (according to the nomenclature.) No worries on my part about water in the bilge anymore, its inevitable that there will be some at all times. I've seen the rug float, I still made it back to the slip. The lake is down more than 10 feet, they've extended our docks into the water 16 ft to compensate, they're gonna dredge again. Just hope I can get out of our cove before season's end and the lake dries up.

farupp · Post by **farupp** » Thu Oct 13, 2011 7:46 am

Totally off topic (sorry, Ali) but there have been 25,000 views of this thread! Al, is this a record?

Frank

uh Oh!

SBC

NCIS

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