Seat Cushions for a 1940 17' Barrelback

Tarry Crumley · Post by **Tarry Crumley** » Wed Oct 11, 2006 4:50 pm

I am in need of the specs for the seat cushions for a 1940 17' Barrelback. Any Ideas? Where the straps were placed, sizes, filling, etc.

Thanks

drrot · Post by **drrot** » Thu Oct 12, 2006 6:32 pm

TARRY,
Here is a photo of one. Which measurements do you want?

Tarry Crumley · Post by **Tarry Crumley** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 6:56 am

That's great, thanks. Did all six of the cushions have the strap across the back side? The side cushions, were they angled to fit the cockpits? What are the measurements of the strap and where it is placed? Thank You again for your help.
Tarry

drrot · Post by **drrot** » Fri Oct 13, 2006 7:15 pm

Tarry,
The surface is 17" square. The sides are 1.75" tall. The strap is dead center and 1.25" wide. It is sewn to the surface for 3". I only have the one cushion. Don't know what the rest are.

Don Ayers · Post by **Don Ayers** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 7:56 am

Dr. Rot;

Hold on there a second. Please identify exactly where you got that cushion. Looks like a post war to me and what color material is it made of?

All the pre-war stuff I have docuemnted for the Barrels has two straps and a taller side wall. We need to identify exactly what you are showing.

Not slapping your hand just want to understand what we are seeing.

Don Ayers · Post by **Don Ayers** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:00 am

drrot · Post by **drrot** » Sat Oct 14, 2006 8:49 am

It came from hull# 71848

Tarry Crumley · Post by **Tarry Crumley** » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:26 pm

Don, that info is great, thanks. Remember that I am dealing with a 17' Barrelback. Did all six of the cushions have the strap across the back side? The side cushions, were they angled to fit the cockpits? What are the measurements of the straps and where are they placed? What is the thickness of the cushions? And where do you get Kaypok? Thank You again for your help. 1940 17' Barrelback, Hull number 71637
Tarry

Brian Robinson · Post by **Brian Robinson** » Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:27 pm

Gentlemen,

I asked Jerry Conrad to fax me the 71848 hull card a couple weeks ago... I have not seen it yet - he promises its coming.

I too am skeptical of the cushion Jim posted. Typically, as Don said, the pre-war 17' cushion had a 2.5"-3" side wall, with two 1" loose straps. The stuffing "fullness" was pretty square - not overfilled or underfilled, just right. The standard material for that particular year cushion would have been Aquamarine Leatherette. But, without the hull card I cannot be sure that was the case with that particular boat. I'll post again when I have the hull card in front of me.

Tarry - the authentic 1940 Pigskin is available in leather, but the currently available vinyl knockoff is quite inferior to the real thing. It is debatable which course is best for a boat with Leatherette originally. Yes, the outside cushions were angled slightly on one edge.

Bill Basler · Post by **Bill Basler** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:46 am

All that info is great, but back to my original question.....1940 17' Barrelback, my interior was Pigskin. We do not have Pigskin the the boat at this time, but would like to work on putting the original interior back, as long as the color is correct and the seat cushions are correct. So...Did all six of the cushions have the straps across the back side? What are the measurements of the straps and where are they placed? What is the thickness of the cushions? And where do you get Kaypok? Thank You again for your help. 1940 17' Barrelback, Hull number 71637
_________________
Tarry Crumley

Bill Basler · Post by **Bill Basler** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:48 am

Tarry,

As I said before - we are waiting on a particular hull card due to conflicting evidence. Be patient.
_________________
-Brian

Current projects:
1929 Chris-Craft 28' Sedan Limousine #3031
1929 Chris-Craft 28' Custom Runabout #3042
1929 Hackercraft 29' Dolphin Deluxe #790
1929 Hackercraft 29' Dolphin Deluxe #794
1936 Gar Wood 25' Custom Runabout #4286
1938 Gar Wood 22' Streamliner #6256
1939 Gar Wood 28' Custom Runabout #6287
1939 Gar Wood 19' Custom Runabout #6398

Bill Basler · Post by **Bill Basler** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 8:51 am

Tarry, I realized I hijacked your thread and took it down a different path. I have split the discussion into two topics, that way we can keep yours focused on your questions.

Don Ayers · Post by **Don Ayers** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 9:19 am

Tarry;

To continue this, yes all the cushions had straps. All documentation to date shows two straps. Side wall height is 2.5-3 inches and Kapok is available from sources that people in the interior business know. Cushion is not over stuffed or under and was made in a bag of cotton sheet and then inserted in to the outer cushion bag. see pics

We need conformation about the pic Jim posted and that is what Brian is working on.

Tarry Crumley · Post by **Tarry Crumley** » Thu Nov 02, 2006 10:01 pm

Sorry about the disturbance. And Thank You for all the help.

Brian Robinson · Post by **Brian Robinson** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:20 pm

Well, I finally got my hands on the #71848 hull card:

Model 104
Engine "K" 22531
Yale Junior Switch RM-3
4 Large Cleats
4 Small Cleats
Upholstery Russ. Aquamarine

Extra Notes

#2 White Banjo Wheel
#5 116 Spotlight

B/O #4 Wheel Puller

Shipped May 23 1941
Hackensack, Minn

So, I think this is as good of proof as any that the odd red cushion Jim posted was not an original, at least not for a pre-war 17' Deluxe.

The photos of cushion construction that Don showed above are your best bet for an upholsterer to duplicate, albeit with Pigskin.

Re-creating an accurate interior is surprisingly complex. Make sure brown denim is used in conjunction with the Aquamarine over the spring bases, don't forget the Coast Guard tags, copper tacks, and black stitching - to name a few.

THE RAZZ · Post by **THE RAZZ** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 2:33 pm

Brian,
Please clarify "#2 white banjo wheel." Is that "white" really white or the aggragate appearing material often seen.
Thx. JerryT

Brian Robinson · Post by **Brian Robinson** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 3:05 pm

Jerry,

It's white. Like the wheel you see in the 1941-42 19' and 23' Custom's. 4-tine, white rim and hub. Only came on the 17s by special order. You may be thinking of the 1937-40 marble finish wheel.

The #2 was the signer's notation that it was the second "extra" for the boat. In this case there were at least 4 "extras". I'm sure it corresponds with the original order sheet numbers.

Don Ayers · Post by **Don Ayers** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 7:53 pm

First let me say thanks:

Jim Staib is a great resource for parts/boats/information and his participation on this site is valued highly. With that said I hope that Jim was not offended that Brian and I wanted to follow up on that cushion and make sure the information provided was vetted properly.

Brian is a fantastic resource and I can't thank him enough for helping me with many research projects. Also I have a lot to learn from him as he is one of the foremost authorities on Gar Wood and Hacker not to mention early Chris Triples.

As Director of Research it is more important that ever to do the very best we can regarding the reporting of historical information in this forum as well as the Brass Bell.

Again, thank you both Jim and Brian for your passion and time spent helping others.

On to the matter at hand, the original thoughts on the cushions and interiors for pre-war runabouts stands and I will do my part in sharing information so that Tarry can do his boat correctly. As Brian indicated there is a big learning curve to getting all the details correct and it sounds as though Brian and I should tackle this subject in an in-depth way someday. For now I encourage Tarry to ask questions and we will post the answers for all.

All for now.

THE RAZZ · Post by **THE RAZZ** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:04 pm

Brian,
Is a hull card "special order" treated the same as an "opition" at Tahoe Concours?

Transferability - Can a boat install a "special order" white wheel that is not listed on the 17' deluxe hull card because it was available and installed on other (17' deluxe) hulls but not this one?
Thx. JerryT

Brian Robinson · Post by **Brian Robinson** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:08 pm

Don-

Absolutely, I have a lot of respect for Jim. He has certainly helped my father and I out over the years. Guys like him are what makes this hobby great. I hope to meet him at Mt. Dora next year.

Jerry- No.

Don Ayers · Post by **Don Ayers** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 8:26 pm

Jerry;

If a boat was a "Special Order" from the factory then the hull card says "SP" in the model designation.

Most of the Barrel backs that you are referring to were not "SP" boats but rather has extra options or additional notations on the hull cards. This is the "Numbering" that Brian is referring to.

So to answer your question. Yes, there were about 20 or so 17' barrels delivered with Banjo wheels and there were not considered "Special Order" by the factory.

As far as Tahoe I have been told by the Chief Judge that if the hull cards did not say special then it would be considered a factory option and no deduction would be applied. However if a boat is a very high score and is in competition for the highest awards (Perpetual) then the boat that more closely matches the factory delivered state would and should trump the option equipped boat.

Hope this makes sense but remember that all is not always cut and dry when humans are involved.

I'll give you an example. Several years ago there was a 17' Barrel with a bird’s eye maple dash. The owner could not show any documentation that the boat came from the factory and the entire production record does not have a single 17' or 19' with that kind of dash. Had that boat been ordered that way from the factory it most likely would have been a "SP".

Now let’s say that there was one boat that actually was "SP" delivered that way and it was not this boat. Should the guy who put that dash in not get a deduction? Absolutely he should because if everyone counted the "SP" versions then we would be all over the place with unusual boat configurations. This would devalue the boats that were actually built unique. You see where I'm going with this.....

Don Ayers · Post by **Don Ayers** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:17 pm

Jerry;

Let me try and clarify. What we are aiming for is for boats to be "as factory delivered". What needs to happen is that people should be informed on how a "special" item will be viewed by any judging team.

In the ideal world if your particular boat did not come with a banjo wheel then it should not be there.

Where I think there is some confusion and how much of this got started at Tahoe is the "engine option" rule.

As you know at Tahoe there is not a deduction for a factory option engine if you don't have the original serial engine or choose to put in the larger option.

This rule is stated in the judging sheet and is clear. What is not clear is when you apply this thinking to other things such as the banjo wheel or other accessories.

I am not the authority for Tahoe rules, that comes from the Chief Judge. We ask these questions each year and something’s get resolved and others do not.

I would like to see clear cut answers for show participants so that people know where they stand. That is the goal we are working toward. Progress seems slow sometimes but it is happening.

The clear cut answer for all who read this is to strive to make your boat "as delivered". If you can't live without a banjo wheel for example then try and find one that came with it or a different model.

Just my two cents.

Don Ayers · Post by **Don Ayers** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 9:26 pm

That last sentence should read:

If you can't live without a banjo then try and find a Boat that was delivered with one.

Thx

Bill Basler · Post by **Bill Basler** » Wed Nov 08, 2006 10:58 pm

Jerry, all this talk about banjo wheels has me thinking you are considering replacing your commodity-grade three spoke black Deluxe wheel for a white banjo.

I had a discussion with you a couple of years back. To paraphrase your comments then— "I think the white banjo is overkill...there's just too much busyness on a small Deluxe—the red of the mahogany, the chrome, the aquamarine upholstery, the black flooring. I like the way the black wheel looks. It's not nearly as busy."

Well, Jerry I agreed with you then, and I still agree with that thought today.

If you were to buy an early- to mid-30s small utility, then you have to find beauty in the absolute simplicity of that boat. Slab sides. Slab deck. No windshield in many cases. I find those boats beautiful for what are. Simple. Spartan. Whatever. A 19-foot Custom is high on the decadence scale..an entirely different animal.

I am opting to keep my wheel as a black 3-spoke. This is a decision I made based on your advice—and the points that Brian and Don make above.

Of course, if you want to sell that black 3-spoke, you know where I'm at.

THE RAZZ · Post by **THE RAZZ** » Thu Nov 09, 2006 9:01 pm

Bill,
Nice recall.

What caught my attention in this thread was the reference to a WHITE banjo wheel for a 17' deluxe.

While restoring The Razz. I asked Don A. to research the banjo issue for 71923. The white was a no go and I didn't care for the marble.

You and I did discuss the asthetics of steering wheels. I still think the black works best.

Mike Cooper, a sculptor-hot rodder here, reclaimed the orginal wheel for the Razz.

Seat Cushions for a 1940 17' Barrelback

Seat Cushions for a 1940 17' Barrelback

Original question posted by Tarry Crumley. Admin Split topic

Original question post by Brian Robinsin. Admin Split topic

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