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XK18 Hull Construction

Repair, or reconstruction. Gelocat or structural fiberglass. If it's hull related, you'll find it here

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rustnrot
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XK18 Hull Construction

Post by rustnrot » Thu Oct 12, 2006 10:11 pm

I am looking at two XK18's in need of restoration. Both owners "swear" there is no wood inside the stringers. They even think the engine mounts are lagged (screwed) into the glass. I really doubt they are lagged into hollow or solid glass stringers. Does anyone know for sure if there is wood inside the stringers? If so, obviously, especially in the one "field boat" I am looking at, they are probably rotten and would need to be replaced.

Interestingly, there appears to be no wood inside the transom--can anyone confirm this?

Finally, is the deck cored with wood, balsa in particular?

You see I only have pics to go by at present and the stringers are a trapezoidal shape that makes me wonder why they would go to all the trouble to machine the wood into a non-standard shape.

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Bill Basler
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Post by Bill Basler » Thu Oct 12, 2006 11:03 pm

My understanding is that there was no wood in the framing structure of these boats. That is not to say there is not wood in the floors and in the framing for the decks.

Typical of the period was to put in a marine plywood floor with a layer of glass over the top. If you can get at the boat, make sure you check the underside of the floor. The underside of the plywood was not always glassed and was prone to rot.

If these boats were built like many other boats which were void of wood superstructure, the hull was laid up in typical fashion inside of the mold with gel going ino the mold first, followed by the resin and glass layup schedule. The hull was allowed to "soft cure" at which point a fiberglass waffle was laid into the hull, bedded in wetted glass. The waffle is a matrix of "stringers and frames" but in this case made out of fiberglass. We had a Winner tri-hull made in this manner. The "waffle" was actually a high density foam, that had a fairly heavy glass matte laminate over the top. The manufacturers would make a bunch of waffles in a jig, and let them cure totally hard, so that they would hold their shape. Then they'd trim and grind the bonding surfaces, and drop the waffle into the hull in a squishy bed of glass matte. If the XK 18 is made this way, it is a pretty good way to go.

To my knowledge there was not any use of balsa at this time. I am pretty sure balsa coring came much later.

And finally, my guess is that there is wood in the transom. There almost always was. If there is a small though-hull fitting that you can pull, you should be able to tell for sure.

Maybe there are others here who have some hands-on experience with these who can say for sure.
Bill Basler

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Post by rustnrot » Fri Oct 13, 2006 9:02 am

I have removed a balsa core from a 1965 Donzi before, but instead of the little blocks being end grain like now, they were flat sawn.

I will just have to remove an engine mount lag bolt to see if there is wood in there. While not good practice to screw into pure glass or, especially any foam that may be under it, it could be possible......

One other question...I gotta believe the top deck can be unscrewed and removed rather than being tabbed on. Insight?ImageImage

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Post by Bill Basler » Fri Oct 13, 2006 11:16 am

Yes, I just don't know the start of the use of balsa for coring.

Looking at your boat, it looks as though the stringers were layed up directly inside the hull. I would guess the process was something like:
1. gel coat sprayed inside of mold.
2. several layers of fiberglass cloth and roving
3. insert some sort of "framework" in the hull, waffle blocking.
4. glass over that framework with a number layers of glass roving.

Keep in mind, what the actual blocking material has little to do with the strength of this method. All the blocking does is create 3-dimensional shapes that, when glassed over, creates a bunch of fiberglass channels/rectangles.

You need PeterXK19 to chime in here. He has pulled a number of these apart and he can tell you exactly what's in those stringers.

As for the deck being able to be unscrewed? I don't know. Today, decks are typically through-bolted and bonded with an adhesive like Plexus, then in some cases fiberglassed from the inside over that joint.

Back then, many were just screwed with the heads hidden by the rubrail. I guess the first thing to look for is whether you see screws from the inside or nuts and washers.
Bill Basler

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Peter XK19
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Wood or not?

Post by Peter XK19 » Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:34 pm

I would say yes these boats have stringers made of wood. But I am only 99% sure. Best way to find out is to unscrew one of the screws from the engine mounts. The screw will tell you what it is screwed into from the type of screw it is. My guess is its an all brass aprox 5 inch screw.

If you can tighten one of these screws as hard as possible by hand, it will tell you the wood is not bad, at least in that particular area.

The wood used is most commonly teak, or something similar. Teak very rarley rots.

Hope this helps, Im not an xk18 expert, never been inside one. But the pics ive seen tells me alot is like the xk19s ive dealt with.

Peter

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Post by rustnrot » Sat Oct 14, 2006 9:02 am

Thanks for the info, couple of other quick questions.

1. Does the XK19 have the "weird" geometry for the stringers, i.e. a trapezoidal cross section as the XK18?

2. I recall the Brass Bell article awhile back saying something to the effect that Rayson Craft designed this hull? Did they also construct it for CC, or simply supply the design and possibly molds?

3. What would you say, this has about a 12 degree v in the hull?

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Post by Wood Commander » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:23 am

XK 18's were a different boat for CC. I think that I read an article on the fiberglass commander site where CC contracted a jet boat or ski boat builder to send them the 18' hulls to build so that they would have a jet boat in the lineup. But XK 19's and XK 22's were based on the 19' Lancer and 23' Lancer hulls (shear line shortened on the XK 22) with different topside treatments. These boats came from the Corsair Division in Cortland, NY which was the newly aquired, former (one of the several)- Thompson Boat Company. So the XK 19 and 22 were of traditional fiberglass hull construction and straight inboard or I/O powered just like their sister boats, the Lancers.

I've never had to dig into the stringers on my Lancers (yet), but I believe that they are wood cored. I can tell you that they are normally shaped pretty much like a vertical rectangle or square.

On both the 19' Lancer that I had and on the "new" 23'er, the plywood in the transom does not cover the entire transom. It only covers the outdrive area with extra coverage, especially width- wise across the transom. This is something that I would like to change as I work on my boat.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Post by rustnrot » Sat Oct 14, 2006 11:41 am

Speaking of "shortened Lancer shears" take a look at what a Mr. John Adams (an architect) in Michigan did with a 23' v-drive Lancer---now a gentleman's racer about 21' long and suitable for Great Lakes use.

He used a "come-a-long" to get some tumblehome in the back.




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Post by Wood Commander » Sun Oct 15, 2006 12:06 pm

That Lancer based Gentleman's Racer is a pretty neat boat! But I must admit that while beautiful, I can't decide if I like it better than my less radical visions for my Lancer. The Racer definately takes a lot of the utility away. But that wood work is gorgeous! And the zoom- zoom and cool factor are huge.
Could I get Mr. Adams e- mail address somehow? I've often thought about putting a wood transom and other wood accents on my Lancer. I'd like to find out if he cut out the original fiberglass transom altogether or just laminated mahogany over top of it. I wasn't going to cut the edges out and come- a- long the hullsides in to give it tumblehome, but among a lot of other things I was going to put the stainless strips on the aft edge of the hullsides to hide the transom "plank" edges just like that.
There is actually a bare hull of a Campion at a repair shop on my way home from work that I drive by everyday. I had thought about that same kind of deal- cut some tumblehome in the transom and pull the aft hullside edges in, then put on an entire mahogany deck and install modern power, WooHoo! Too many boats, too little time and money!
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Post by rustnrot » Sun Oct 15, 2006 3:04 pm

The email I have for him does not work anymore. He is in ACBS. He did glue the mahogany over the fiberglass, in fact there is a step where the wood stops.

As far as glueing wood over fiberglass I build a Gar Wood speedster that way--1/4" mahogany glued over an inner fiberglass hull--works great. Here

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... AMESE%3AIT

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Post by Wood Commander » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:47 pm

Your Speedster is very nice! It would be hard to tell from an original. What do you use to glue the mahogany planks on, 5200, WEST SYSTEM, something else? How thick are your planks?
And also, which ACBS chapter would Mr. adams be in, or is there only one Michigan chapter? Thanks.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Post by rustnrot » Sun Oct 15, 2006 6:55 pm

There are two MI chapters, but look in the directory for John and Melinda Adams, Shelby Township.

Epoxy similar to WEST from USComposites is used to glue the 1/4" planks on the hull. I used 5200 before also, but it pooches at the seams and is harder to sand. I also dye the epoxy brown.

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Post by thompsonboatboy » Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:18 am

I cannot imagine that any North American boat builder would use TEAK as stringers or for other structural parts buried under the floors.

Chris-Craft in January 1962 purchased Thompson Boat Company of New York, Inc. located at Cortland, NY. This was an independent firm, not associated with Thompson Bros. Boat Mfg. Co. of Peshtigo, WI. In fact they were competitors. The Cortalnd operation had been a branch of Thompson Bros. Boat Mfg. Co. up until January 1959.

The all-fiberglass Corsair Chris-Craft boats were developed and built at Cortland, NY by Thompson Boat company of New York, Inc. staring in late 1962-early 1963.

Andreas

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Post by rustnrot » Thu Nov 16, 2006 7:32 pm

I (finally) bought and brought the XK18 shown above home today. I'll post more about this later, but, at least as much as I could tell...has hollow stringers. In fact, the throttle cable is run thru the port one to the rear (you can actually see inside the stringer where the throttle cable goes into it). At nearly 1/2" thick (but hollow) they are stout indeed. I will remove the lag bolts for the engine and report whether or not they are in fact bolted into wood underneath.

Obviously they must have been fabricated on a form of some sort prior to being glassed in the hull.

Also, there is no wood core in the transom nor in the deck whatsover--all glass.

Stay tuned as my build plans (I don't dare call it a "restoration" with this "tough" crowd) call for a Pulse Drive surface drive propeller and a 300 hp Toyota Marine ski boat engine, an all aluminum DOHC 6000 rpm screamer.

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Paul P
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Post by Paul P » Tue Nov 28, 2006 2:16 pm

Hello friend, and congratulations on your new acquisition !

The XK-18 is a very special Chris Craft, indeed, and I think you'll have a lot of fun with yours. In any case, the boat looks like a worthy project, and you should be able to get a lot of attention (and thrills) with it.

regards,

Paul
Last edited by Paul P on Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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I Have an XK18.

Post by rustnrot » Tue Nov 28, 2006 4:14 pm

Ummm...Paul I have an XK18 (the jet boat) not an XK19.

I have been in this "hobby" since 1988 and have restored several wooden Chris Crafts and Gar Woods, some very original down to the proper hose clamps and cloth-covered wire, some not so original. I've rebuilt the K motor and a 327F engine in a Supersport. I've had my fill of old school engines (not allowed on my property anymore) and old inefficient hull designs (I had an original 17' CC barrelback but tired of the old hull design and hype sold it without restoring it since I just did not have it in me to do a "proper" restoration anymore--I let someone else take the grief or the kudos, depending on how it turned out.

I have also built two Gar Wood Speedster replicas, wood over a fiberglass inner hull that you cannot tell from an all wood boat. (Another old inefficient hull design I too tired of that just recently).

In fact, I was going to put a wooden deck on an old rare Formula Jr. (predecessor to the Donzi sweet 16) prior to coming across this XK18. I'll still do that project in the future, however--and it will have a supercharged rotary engine in it.

I have been around these boats long enough to not care anymore what others think is "right" or "wrong" or how much is it "worth" or sells for even. Putting the Toyota engine in (used in the Lexus BTW) is getting EXACTLY the response I wanted already---gasp and horror from the Peanut Gallery! I cannot wait till it is at a boat show and have some interesting dockside conversations.

If you or anyone else on here wants to "rescue" this XK18 I will sell it for $8k as-is but you better act fast as I am putting the jet drive and hardware up on ebay right away (check it out, I may have just what you need for your XK).

Old Hickory? I am a UT Knoxville graduate, 1979 electrical engineering...

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Paul P
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Post by Paul P » Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:52 pm

Yeah, I know, thanks for being kind about it. :?

I realized the darn thread was about the 18 after I pontificated about the 19, and then I had already referenced the CCABC thread, topic, and site to several guys in Sweden who own the XK-19 so I couldn't change it. Otherwise I would have deleted everything about the 19. Since they've had time to see the original thread (and it's something like 3AM in Sweden) I deleted the references to the 19 now.

The issue about authentic power is often hotly debated, and no need to do it here. My impression is "it's much more important on the more valuable boats" to have authentic power.

Hey, if you have any of those boats you listed left, head for Old Hickory, give me a call, and we'll put you up at Cedar Creek Yacht Club!

Regards, Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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Post by rustnrot » Tue Nov 28, 2006 10:06 pm

I need to find an XK19! You see, I have always wanted to put a gas turbine in a smaller vee hull runabout.......

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Paul P
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Post by Paul P » Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:38 am

rustnrot wrote:I need to find an XK19! You see, I have always wanted to put a gas turbine in a smaller vee hull runabout.......
I think you share some similar thoughts with the Chris Craft Engineering Department, of a few years back. They actually built, tested, and marketed a gas turbine system in their 45' Commander Tournament Fisherman. If any actually got out, they were probably recalled. I don't know of any that exist today.

45' Commander Tournament Fisherman

They ran one with 16 people aboard, clocked at 23.3 nautical mph on the measured mile in Goverment Cut at Miami Beach, Fla. Now that would have been a fun trip, eh?

Looking back at the specifications for your XK-18, I'm fairly well amazed that the Chris Craft liability management department would allow them to sell an 18' boat with a 400-hp 454 engine, to the "general public". One remembers those famous last words, "hey watch this".

Regards, good luck with the project, (come see us on Old Hickory)

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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Post by THE RAZZ » Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:23 am

re "300 hp Toyota Marine ski boat engine, an all aluminum DOHC 6000 rpm screamer."

The 1967-74 Pontiac 455cid (long stroke) with custom heads, cam, roller rockers, carb will put out 600 foot pounds of torque AT 3000RPM. 600ftplb @3000RPM!!!!!! Imagine the prop and pitch 600fp of torgue would need to hold 3000RPM. Its not screaming; but it would FLY! Just a thought JerryT

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Post by rustnrot » Wed Nov 29, 2006 6:18 pm

Remember my rule about old engines---they are not allowed on my property. Besides, if I don't put the Toyota in the XK18 my friend Chappy wants it for his 1939 19' Barrelback!!!

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Megabyte
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Glass stringers in the XK

Post by Megabyte » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:24 pm

Yes... the 2 main stringers are all fiberglass with no wood inside. Yes ...the engine mounts are screwed into the glass. The only wood to rot is the floor between the front seats and the partitions between the cockpit and the bow / engine compartments.
I have my boat down to the wiring harness and fuel lines at the moment and just got it back from the shop with all new gelcoat. It is blue with the original theme. If you are going to restore the seats
I can help you with wood paterns and stuff.I also have some windshield hardware.....acrylic donuts and the special screws...All the build info.....
Bill T

rustnrot
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Post by rustnrot » Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:38 pm

On my XK18 there IS wood inside the stringers. It exists only underneath the rear portion to allow the engine mount lag bolts to have something to bite into under the fiberglass. I Would estimate it to be 1 inch thick in there...or less. It does not extend down to the stringer bottom aka the hull itself. On mine, the wood is in good shape, but I suppose other boats could be different and not have this there.

Meanwhile, the Toyota engine fits great, the surface drive fits on the transom well also. Once all mocked up I will remove it all before I fill in all the holes that are not necessary prior to finish and paint.

I have Attwood avenir seats in blue and white for the front, good for 4 g's, they have spring seating and all plastic panels (no wood) and look and will fit good. I also found parts from TH Marine to substitute for the w/s plexi-rings. With a few twists, the w/s can be readily removed for cleaning.

Remember...consider my boat not a restoration but a re-engineering more like "Overhaulin" on TV, not as extreme as a "Pimp My Ride" version.

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Post by Paul P » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:10 pm

Take another look and please let me know what you find. I am wondering if the wood is "under" the glass, and open below to air out. I have the same construction on my 1966 20' fiberglass Sea Skiff, built in the same plant your XK was built, a few years earlier.

CC should have known NOT to encapsulate wood by now, and I am suspecting the wood was (as you note) a medium place there to lag into. Mine has the same, and it does not extend into the wet zone, and it is open below one of those formed fiberglass beams. I can put my hand under and touch the wood. If it was "encapsulated" I fear we would be discussing rot right now.

Lemme know, I'm very interested in the construction history of the Cortland, New York boats.

Regards, Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

rustnrot
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Post by rustnrot » Mon Feb 26, 2007 7:25 pm

Paul, what you said above applies directly to the construction of my XK18. Wood is not encapsulated underneath; the stringers are also ventilated such that you can put your hand up under the "vent" at the transom and feel the bottom of the wood.

There is another vent waayy up at the front of the stringers, under the front deck, a much smaller slot. I plan on pressure washing all the crap that has accumulated inside the stringers utilizing the front vent. Also, they cut a hole in the stringer to rig the cable for the foot throttle inside the stringer.

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Rough Fitting Toyota Engine Surface Drive

Post by rustnrot » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:02 pm

A couple pics as I am biggining to fit the Toyota engine and surface drive. The scoop was gone when I got the boat but the Toyota engine is low profile enough I may not put the big center scoop back, not sure. GPS speedo, tilt wheel also. Soon I will have two sets of holes, the old ones to fill (including a Big One in the bottom where the jet intake was) and the new holes to keep. Then blue metal flake paint, after splitting hull and blueprinting bottom.

Closed cooling system to fab also.


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