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327Q Project

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quitchabitchin
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Post by quitchabitchin » Sat Apr 28, 2012 4:32 pm

Thanks John. From the looks of it, the story of a fresh rebuild seems true. The rods are all marked in the typical fashion along with the main caps. The crank is marked R 010 and M 010 which would indicate that both the rod and main surfaces on the crank were turned .010" to true them up. I have been researching cams like crazy and think I am set on one, just need to order it. The only variable is going to be the actual compression ratio since we do no know if the pistons are flat top, domed, or recessed. The heads have much larger combustion chambers than the originals so the pistons would need to be higher compression to support the larger chambers. If it goes together and seems like it needs more compression, I'll have the old set rebuilt and put them on. That is pretty far down the road. Thanks again and if you ever come across the paperwork, I would love to have it.
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Post by mfine » Sat Apr 28, 2012 8:00 pm

For the cost of a head gasket, why wouldn't you pull a head and find out what you have for pistons and combustion chambers?

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Post by quitchabitchin » Sat Apr 28, 2012 10:37 pm

The heads are casting #462624, which has 76cc chambers. This engine has a 350 crank, which has a longer stroke, which would have a higher compression ratio than a 327 with the same pistons. I have looked into the spark plug holes and see the pistons are stamped 030 and 412, meaning bored .030" over, which would raise compression, and 412 gram weight. They have a small dish to them, no more than the stock 327 pistons in the original engine. So a quick run through a compression ratio calculator puts it around 8.3-8.6, depending on the actual thickness of the head gasket and the deck height. This is based on a -10cc piston, if they are in fact less than this, it would raise it closer to the factory 8.8-1.

The cam I am looking at putting in makes roughly 230 HP with this set up according to Comp Cams CamQuest program at 8.5-1 CR. With a little tuning on the carb and ignition timing side, I think it will be strong enough. If not, for a few hundred bucks, I can rebuild the other heads and raise the compression to 10-1 or better, which raises the HP to over 250.

I am not going to pull the heads off of a professionally built engine just to get a better look at the top of the piston, since I am not going to change the pistons anyway. It has to run better than the old, tired 327Q that was just pulled out. Two cylinders were lower than the rest, and one piston was melted down to the oil ring.
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Post by quitchabitchin » Thu May 03, 2012 9:24 pm

After 3 calls to Comp Cams and three completely different answers, I ordered a Lunati cam from Summit. I was pretty set on a Comp Cams unit until I talked to the tech line today. The guy first confirmed that the last guy I talked to gave me a bad recommendation then suggested a different grind. When I asked him why the 260 over the 250, he said "I don't care what cam you put in it, I'm never going to ride in it." The truth is all but 1 of the recommended cams would work, but I really didn't like his attitude. I called Lunati and described the engine and usage and got a recommendation on a cam very close to the Comp I was going to purchase. I researched it a bit more, and found it to be part of their "Bare Bones" series instead of the typical "Voodoo" series and it has a great price. The cam and lifter kit was only $95 vs. the $195 for the Comp Cams lifter and cam kit, so I ordered it today and it will possibly be here tomorrow afternoon, Monday at the latest. It shipped within 2 hours of the order and may make it the couple hundred miles tonight via UPS.

The specs are 204/214 duration @ .050" with .420"/.443" lift and a 112 degree LSA with 4 degrees of advance ground into the design. Peak HP is around 4000 RPM and Peak Torque around 3000 with good strong torque from 1500 to 3500.

I can't wait to get this thing back together.
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Post by jfrprops » Fri May 04, 2012 6:48 am

I don't understand anything you said,sure all our gear head do....but can't wait to hear how she turns out!!
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Post by quitchabitchin » Fri May 04, 2012 4:33 pm

John,

It just means it should have much more power and torque than it did before. It will still top out around the same speed, just get there faster. The guy from Comp Cams was a jerk and the Lunati cam was a much better deal, so I thank him for steering me away to another manufacturer.
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Post by jfrprops » Fri May 04, 2012 9:29 pm

yes, the blogs and net are a real good place to find good products and good workmen....folks with a bad attitude need to watch themselves....word spreads fast.
The Mission Inn where I stayed during the Tavares/Dora show..would do well to learn that lesson.
Enough said. For now.

Good luck with the engine.

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Post by quitchabitchin » Sun May 06, 2012 9:28 am

Well, cam is installed, new timing chain, lifters, valve lash set to zero, and intake installed. I have to wait on the oil pan to have a drain plug installed, I am going to mount a remote oil drain, before the rest can go together. Should be complete in a couple of weeks. I am now a little disappointed that I have the hull stripped because I am ready to run this thing and don't want wait.
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Post by jfrprops » Sun May 06, 2012 7:35 pm

take your time on that hull job...this will be all the more a thrill when such good and patient work leads to that first launch and ride!
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Post by mfine » Sun May 06, 2012 7:59 pm

I don't know, sounds like you have an engine that really needs on the water testing ASAP. The only reasonable solution I can think of is to pick up a "spare" hull you can drop it in while you wait for the old one to be ready. The good news is there are a lot of fine boats that motor will fit in, so you shouldn't have any problem finding one you like.

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Post by quitchabitchin » Sun May 06, 2012 9:35 pm

It really wouldn't take all that much work to put it back together enough for a quick trip. I am thinking of finishing the engine and dropping it in without full reassembly. I just need to put the bow eye on for trailering, fuel filler neck, and one side panel (for the throttle lever). The dash is still intact along with steering gear and prop shaft. I'll just have to sit on a 3.5 gallon bucket and hang on to the wheel. A pair of goggles might help to. I figure it's probably easier to do the break in procedure while floating in the water than to use the bucket method. It has to run 20 minutes at 2000-2500 RPM, no idle until cam is broken in. I need to order a couple gaskets and get the oil pan back, then I'll decide what to do.
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Post by decsdad » Tue May 08, 2012 4:37 pm

i would love to see a picture of however you decide to deal with the gas tank vent issue whenever you get around to that part of the project. good luck with it all, i'm excited to be following this.
'70 17' Corsair 327Q

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Paul P
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Post by Paul P » Tue May 15, 2012 11:41 am

chiming in rather late on this project, raising the compression above 9.0:1 is not recommended with the fuel supply we have today. The cam profile you selected seems to be appropriate for the marine use, and I always get similar bad advice from hot rod car guys when I have a motor discussion about a marine application. They are all out there running SBC motors for 12 to 14 seconds at a time and they don't have a clue what happens to a marine motor when it has to maintain 3000 RPM for extended time frames.

Since your build is custom, it would be appropriate to read the plugs carefully to understand the heat range. You DO NOT want to end up with a powerful motor that runs a little on the lean side, as it will want to melt pistons, and as long as we are talking pistons, stay away from the Hypereutectic Pistons, they have too much silicon in them, too brittle, were developed for smog reasons, and forged pistons are the only way to go on a boat, because they will take a pounding.

Hope you have test run the motor with a bucket feed. Avoid the pressurized hose feed if you want to evaluate how the water pump is working. Give the neighbors something to talk about! :-)

best,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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Post by ppeters48 » Tue May 15, 2012 9:20 pm

So what is the recommended compression ratio with the ### fuels that we have access to these days?
Phil

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Post by Don Ayers » Tue May 15, 2012 9:39 pm

I would think 8.5 to 9 would be OK.

A lot of people who trailer their boats gas up at the station. But I guess if your doing extended cruise you might have to use marina gas. For no more than the little boats are used I personally would pay for the high-test at the marina.

Now owning a big boat is another story I'm sure
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Post by mfine » Tue May 15, 2012 10:08 pm

ppeters48 wrote:So what is the recommended compression ratio with the ### fuels that we have access to these days?
Phil
That depends on your cam (dynamic compression), timing and advance curve, spark plugs, engine temperature, how rich the fuel mixture is, grade and condition of the fuel, and I am sure a few other things I am not thinking of at the moment.

I am running at around 9.5:1 in my 355 SBC and it should be OK with 89 octane, but I keep it filled with 91/93 premium as cheap insurance. I fill it with a fuel cart since it spends most of the summer in a lift, not a trailer, so in reality I am paying a bit less for auto 93 than I would pay for marina 89.

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Post by quitchabitchin » Tue May 15, 2012 10:09 pm

Paul, I agree on not wanting to run on the lean side, that's one of the things that happened to the last engine. Both metering rods broke off and were stuck in the jets, thereby restricting the fuel supply when the secondaries opened up. The number 2 piston was melted from running so lean. I rebuilt the carb and put in a slightly larger jet and run a little rich if anything. I would rather burn more fuel than pistons. I tried a smaller jet but didn't seem to get the top end speed I wanted, so I went back to the larger jet. Once this engine is broken in, I will fine tune the jet/metering rod combination, erring on the side of more fuel. I am not sure what pistons are in it,forged or not, since the long block was assembled.

As far as fuel is concerned, I use high octane from the gas station in most cases, sometimes filling up on the water. Some of the stations near Dale Hollow Lake in Tennessee will advertise "No Ethanol", I try to use them when in the area.
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Post by Paul P » Wed May 16, 2012 9:21 am

I'm on the Cumberland River a little downstream from Dale Hollow (Nashville) and our YC uses 93 octane 100% gasoline, and for that reason I absolutely never fill up a trailered boat at a gas station. Our club goes out of its way to maintain good fuel for our membership, and I think because we do it, so do other marinas and clubs in the area. Once you get into ethanol the game changes regarding the old school techniques of power, compression, cam, etc., and unless we are careful with our modified motors we run the risk of having pistons that look like this one from PARAMOUNT's 427.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-UJ8wuE8qH4M/T ... CF0826.JPG

If you have the heart to watch, here is the video of that motor coming apart. This is the result, in my opinion and some others too, of rebuilding a marine engine to higher performance automotive standards, using the wrong parts for marine use. Warning........not pretty sounds.

http://www.youtube.com/embed/EzbW2FL9htY?rel=0

This motor was built with a Holley carb that may have been too big, performance intake that altered the fuel/air ratio, and we never really knew what the compression ratio was but it was reported from the helm that the boat had lots of power (until the motor blew). Piston type was questionable. Sadly this shop went through the same thing twice with failures, and the owner had to replace the engines. Each time the motors were dyno tuned first and then put into marine service. There was evidence of liquid aluminum spattered onto the valves and combustion chamber on one of the cylinders, so the broken connecting rod in the photo may not have been the cause, it may have been the result of something else. There is some thought that there may have been some detonation and the hyper pistons wouldn't take the pounding, and I would always default to forged pistons if given the choice. In any case, there is a lot to be said about our lower compression motors that have lasted 45 years or more, especially seeing this freshly rebuilt one lasting less than 20 minutes! :-) All the early Hercules motors were low compression, the 327F and the 430 and 431 Lincolns were all 8.0:1, and the 427 Ford bumped it up to just under 9.0:1.

Regarding the lean piston syndrome, I don't even like to tap the intake manifold to take the PCV tube when doing an Edelbrock carb upgrade, because it will lean out the cylinder closest to the tap once the PCV is fully opened.... It is better to drill the Edelbrock #1409 and install the PVC port just like the original Carter. Automotive people just do NOT understand why a 427 marine motor absolutely does NOT need any more than a 600 cfm carb.

Added power will generate a lot of heat and stress. What works for cars often is very inappropriate for boats. Very few hot rod cars are fully loaded and running up hill for 30 minutes or more at a time like a boat motor has to.

regards,

Paul
Last edited by Paul P on Wed May 16, 2012 10:19 am, edited 3 times in total.
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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Post by Paul P » Wed May 16, 2012 10:15 am

Here is the combustion chamber that got hot enough to splatter liquid metal around. I thought I would just show this as an example of what can happen if we modify our marine motors too far.

On the dyno this motor ran well, everyone was pretty happy with the power. Once put under marine loading it overheated.

I know I am over-selling my point here on this thread, but the point is to be sure to read those plugs at intervals once you get the motor in operation.

Image

Regards,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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quitchabitchin
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Post by quitchabitchin » Wed May 16, 2012 12:15 pm

The biggest issue with the Q that I have seen so far is that it seems the front cylinders run lean in comparison to the rear. The Q manifold is unique to that motor, it is not the same manifold as the F motors or any other for that matter. It appears to be a single plane manifold that, because of the angle, tends to starve the front cylinders of fuel and load up the rear. The plugs in the rear are always a tad richer and the number 2 piston was the first, and only one to melt in the last motor when it starved for fuel. The number 1 piston also showed signs of extreme temperatures, just not fully melted like the other side. This is why I plan to make sure the fuel mixture is rich over lean even if it leaves a little power on the table. When it was finally tuned right, the tired old motor had plenty of power, this one should be even better.

As far as over selling the point, I am a true gearhead and love to see photos of things gone bad. Somewhere I have a photo of a Mitsubishi Eclipse piston with the end of a valve solidly planted sideways in the top of it from a broken timing belt at around 8000 RPM's on 14 lbs of boost. That was a bad day. Here is a photo of the melted piston, notice the spattering on it as well.


Image

And here is a shot of the new pistons from bleow, not sure if they are forged or not.

Image
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q

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Post by quitchabitchin » Wed May 16, 2012 12:28 pm

Here are the latest photos...


Image


Image
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Post by Paul P » Wed May 16, 2012 3:03 pm

Hmmm is that the correct color of blue ?

Sorry couldn't resist....motor looks just great.

I have not had the opportunity to compare the Q intake with a regular SBC intake but someone someday simply must find a replacement for the Q intakes, especially if they are single plane and have a tendency to run lean on one end of the motor. Perhaps someone will come forward with a kit to take the water off the timing chain side of the motor, perhaps use a wedge to flatten out the carb.

I know through bench flow testing that some intake manifolds do not deliver the same cfm to each cylinder and that on one occasion I was advised to use a 4-hole spacer to promote better flow. Don't take that advice for a Q intake, as it was specific to a Ford FE intake design.

Hey just to confirm, when you say the front cylinders run lean in the Q intake, are you referring to the distributor side of the motor or the timing chain side (this gets confusing becaust the motor is turned around backwards from automotive orientation in the Q series, as you know 8) )

We are running a pair of 327Q motors in my parent's 31 Commander Sedan, and they run beautifully, sound great, and the boat is fast enough to ski behind. Someone should come up with an aftermarket Q intake manifold. I think I'll call Vic Edelbrock over to the house for drinks and dinner this week end, lol.

best,

Paul
Last edited by Paul P on Wed May 16, 2012 3:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Wed May 16, 2012 3:10 pm

What is different on the Q motors that you can't use one of the existing aftermarket intakes?

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quitchabitchin
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Post by quitchabitchin » Wed May 16, 2012 6:46 pm

If you look at the angle of the carb adapter on the Q intake, it is very steep. The engine is mounted at a sharp angle, especially with the direct drive. I am not sure if the V Drive has a smaller angle. This means that the front cylinders will have to fight harder to pull in the air/fuel mixture because they are fighting against gravity as well. By front, I am talking about the front of the boat, cylinders 1 & 2 in Q terms, 7 & 8 in standard configurations. Look at the size of the wedge in comparison to the level in the background. It is a slope of about 2-3" rise per 12" run, maybe slightly less, but still very large.

Image

In a perfect world, the air/fuel mixture would be pulled in on the intake stroke evenly to all cylinders. This engine, being fresh may burn fuel more evenly, we'll have to see.

On the other hand, if Mr. Edelbrock needs someone to test a Q manifold prototype, I'm game. These intakes are getting harder to find and are very prone to cracking because of the steep angle, they hold water. The owner's manual says to remove the large plug and use a siphon pump to remove the water upon winter lay up. Mine was cracked at one point and has been repaired. Guys are getting $6-700 for repaired or repairable intakes and $12-1400 for good ones.
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Post by mfine » Wed May 16, 2012 7:23 pm

You can buy a wedge at any angle you need to put on an aftermarket intake so that shouldn't be the issue. Does the Q manifold have unique water routing or something that prevents you from using a standard 2101 and a big wedge?

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Post by quitchabitchin » Wed May 16, 2012 7:36 pm

Yes, the thermostat housing is mounted near the distributor also. See photo.


Image
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Post by Paul P » Mon May 21, 2012 12:50 pm

First guy to do the intake swap on a Q motor is going to be a hero, because at the price of those Q intakes he will drive the price waaay down and also give Q owners lots of options for better flowing intakes.

Here is a comparison of Q and F intakes. As you can see the Q has the distributor and t-stat on the same end, while the F has them on opposite sides. The F intake has no tilt for the carb. This looks like a plumbing job to me. Anyone done it (successfully)?

Image

Image

Regards,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Mon May 21, 2012 3:47 pm

You can always plumb it like an F, a 283, a Mercruiser, Volvo, OMC, or for that matter however you want. It just won't really be a Q when you are done. If original looks are important, I can see the bind. If not, treat it as a generic marinized SBC and choose a manifold and plumbing setup that makes you happy.

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quitchabitchin
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Post by quitchabitchin » Mon May 21, 2012 7:44 pm

I think the biggest challenge would be where the thermostat actually bolts up to a standard intake. On most SBC intakes, if not all, the T-Stat housing is mounted on top, at the front with the hose coming out perpendicular to the timing chain. In the Q configuration, the fuel pump is right in the way because it is mounted on top of the camshaft. You would have to go to electric and the hose would have to have a 180 degree bend in it to go back to the front (of the boat) motor mount to the circulating water pump if you were to use a standard type T-stat housing.

So I guess one just needs to design a T-stat housing that would bring the opening for the hose back towards the distributor end, maybe at a 45 to go around the carb?

I think it could be done.
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Post by jfrprops » Mon May 21, 2012 9:48 pm

Good info exchanges in this thread....I am learning stuff....or maybe better said, I am seeing it now.

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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