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327Q Project

Keeping your powerboat under power is a lot easier with good advice. Post your power systems questions here.

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Chad Durren
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Post by Chad Durren » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:46 am

Oh, I'm gonna have questions...

The plan is to get the engine torn down, inspected, cleaned, painted, documented, etc. I'll replace suspect parts and upgrade where necessary. I'd like to learn as I go and hopefully save a few dimes by doing the grunt-work myself.

I will have the engine rebuilt and reassembled by a professional as I'm clueless when it comes to engine tuning.

It should keep me busy through the Winter.

My block: GM 3932386
The intake manifold: GG 8222 DNN 11128
Heads: 3947041 (one is GM 8 and the other GM 11)
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport

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Chad Durren
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Post by Chad Durren » Tue Oct 30, 2012 11:55 am

Andy, did you "rattle can" your blue paint?
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
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Post by quitchabitchin » Tue Oct 30, 2012 1:33 pm

Yes, I used plenty of rattle cans...I should have bought a case.
FLASH1969 Chris Craft Cavalier Ski-230 HP 327Q

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Post by Chad Durren » Tue Oct 30, 2012 2:42 pm

What can you tell me about block casting 3932386?

Considering high temp powder coating on the engine. Not as expensive as I thought.
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport

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Post by quitchabitchin » Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:13 pm

That block was used for 302, 327, or 350 in 1969 only and could have 2 or 4 bolt main caps, have you taken the oil pan off yet? This is the same block # I had, with 2 bolt mains. I actually bought a long block (3970010) from John R. in VA that was a 350 bored .030 over so essentially it is a 355 with 4 bolt mains.

Here is a link to a great website for decoding GM engines.

http://www.nastyz28.com/sbchevy/sblock.php

Here is the block with the heads off...the water passages look very familiar, huh?


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As you can see, the #2 piston got a little hot and burnt down to the second ring. Believe it or not, it still had good compression. The front cylinders are prone to running hot if you run lean at all.
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Chad Durren
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Post by Chad Durren » Fri Nov 02, 2012 4:46 pm

Any tricks to pulling the flywheel? Soaked, heated, whacked with a dead-blow... A little movement but need to check if I'm missing something.

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1952 CC 18' Sportsman
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Post by rdapron » Sat Nov 03, 2012 12:56 am

A friend of mine posted this video of a very original CC 283 - you guys might be interested in viewing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKNu8ugoGIY

rob

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Post by quitchabitchin » Sat Nov 03, 2012 3:32 pm

Chad,

The flywheel should come right off. It is probably rusted to the crankshaft. Heat around the crank might help, but it will take quite a bit. I would continue to soak, then hit on the outside of the flywheel back and forth, like 12 and 6, 3 and 9.
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Post by Chad Durren » Sun Nov 04, 2012 11:24 pm

Thanks, flywheel removed successfully, as well as the trans and damper plate.

I'm getting real close to just the block. Now I'm faced with a stubborn timing chain cover and oil pain. How much heat can they take? How much force is needed? I've removed all the timing chain cover bolts (inside and out) and loosened the oil pan bolts a bit. They will not release from their gaskets. Any tips?


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1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport

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Post by quitchabitchin » Wed Nov 07, 2012 1:38 am

Sorry Chad, I've been busy and haven't had a chance to check in.

Be very careful with this. I cracked mine in the corners where the timing chain cover meets the bell housing. Did you get all 4 bolts inside? 2 are behind the damper plate and are a pain in the rear because you can't see them.

I suggest using a stiff scraper to try and separate it from the block. It should come off fairly easily since it's just a paper gasket, just double check all of the bolts.

If you do break it, there's been one on eBay lately.
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Post by Chad Durren » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:25 am

After looking at the manual a dozen times, I found the 4 bolts on the inside. Still no luck. So I removed the damper plate and discovered 2 MORE bolts holding it in place. After those were out, I pried it off by hand.

Then I had access to the oil pan gasket, which I separated with a putty knife.

Here are some more pics. As you can see, the heads are my biggest concern. I'll need new seats and valves at the least. Maybe new heads altogether? Taking everything to a local guy with a hot tank to clean.

Then I guess I need to figure out where to find some extra horses and start shopping. The cam, crank, and cylinders look new.

Thankfully, there are guys like you that have been down the path already.

The only piece I broke was the oil pump. I snapped an ear off at base. An easy part to find but I'm wondering if there is something that will work better. Did you keep your original pump?

P.S. Valve spring compressing tools suck. Took me 2 hours to get them off last night. Luckily, my eyes and fingers are still intact.

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1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport

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Post by drrot » Wed Nov 07, 2012 8:44 am

Chad,
You shoulda called :D I could have told you how to use the hammer and socket to get the valve springs off. 10 minutes tops. Stop by. I probably have the parts you need. Buy a new high volume oil pump. It's cheap insurance.
Jim Staib
www.finewoodboats.com


1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
1968 Century 17' Resorter FG-68-174

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:20 pm

New heads with valves installed are cheap and you can get a nice performance boost with a better breathing head.

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Post by mfine » Wed Nov 07, 2012 2:58 pm

Chad,

Just looked back and saw your head casting numbers. Those look like a 64cc head with 1.94-1.50 valves. For a boat you may want a little more conservative compression ratio and bigger valves. If building as a 350, I would consider a 72cc chamber volume with 2.02-1.60 valves and unleaded friendly seats. I think mine were about $300ea for new assembled heads and valves.

With the blocked bored a bit over you will end up with a 357" displacement and something like a 9.5:1 compression ratio depending on deck clearance and gasket thickness. The 64cc would give about 10.4:1 which is a bit high with regular unleaded ethanol containing crap fuel these days.

A 357 at 9.5:1 with a decent 4 barrel carb and a not too aggressive cam will give you good power at higher end while maintaining low end torque. You can do a lot to pull more top end power, but you will pay a price for it down low where a boat needs the torque to get up on plane, especially loaded.

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Post by Chad Durren » Wed Nov 07, 2012 3:44 pm

Thanks, Matt. I'm not quite sure what that all means but I'm sure thankful I know someone who does. I see no wear at all on my cam or crank.
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport

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mfine
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Post by mfine » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:24 pm

Short and sweet. The more displacement, the more torque and power. Also, the more air it can bring in and push out, the more gas it can burn and therefore more power. Good heads, big valves, the right cam all influence how well the engine breathes.

The issue with compression ratio is the more you compress air, the hotter it gets. To hot and you will get detonation that will rob power and burn up your pistons. Not good. The octane rating on gas is a resistance to burning and therefore the higher the octane rating, the higher compression you can run before you burn up the pistons. If you want to run premium high octane fuel or even 100LL aviation fuel, you can get more power and efficiency from a higher compression ratio, but your fuel supply will be more expensive and difficult to find.

The displacement and the head volume determine compression ratio, how much space there is with the piston at the top compared to the bottom. Your heads would be a decent volume for a 327 engine but small for a 350-357 if you want to be safe with 87-89 octane fuel available at most marinas.

In short, new heads with bigger valves will allow more power and will allow you to build a higher displacement engine out of your block for more power. The cost will probably be affordable compared to rebuilding your old heads with new hardened valve seats and new valves etc.

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Post by Horstuff » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:38 pm

Matt, that was a good, simple, laymans terms explanation for us non-gearheads, thanks for that.

Bobby
1948 27' Super DeLuxe Enclosed Cruiser

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quitchabitchin
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Post by quitchabitchin » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:17 pm

I would save the money on even cleaning the heads and look for either another set with the larger valves that need rebuilt or a new set. Matt is right about the heads creating more power. The "camel hump" heads of the era that are so desirable have the larger valves from the factory, so that is where the power comes from. I would also strongly suggest a little larger cam, don't go crazy but something mild, here's why. Unless you marked and numbered the lifters, you already need a new set because the lifters break in to the cam and cannot be used on different lobes or in different spots. Now that you need lifters, the cam and lifter sets are not that much more than lifters alone, especially if you shop around and do some homework.

Go to the Comp Cams website and use their Cam Quest software and compare a few different profiles after entering in your information. They still make a reproduction of the original cam, so compare it with an XE 254 and see the major gains in HP and Torque. I bought a Lunati Bare Bones cam #10000 which included the cam and lifters from Summit Racing for just over $100. It is very similar to the XE254 but $100 cheaper and with less attitude from the tech dept. The RPM range is 1000-5000 and should have very good low end torque and midrange power with a relatively unaffected idle, maybe just a little rougher, but will sound great.

Changing the heads and the cam will make a big difference and should perform very well. If we hadn't had the complication with our latest addition, I would have already posted a video of the engine running. Cest la vie.
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Post by quitchabitchin » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:40 pm

Correction...compare the 929H-which is the exact same specs as the factory cam, which shows 193 HP and 216 lb/ft fo torque, to the XE250H (which is almost identical to the Lunati 10000), which shows 273 HP and 349 lb/ft of torque. That's a huge difference for under $150. This dyno simulation is done on a 327 with larger valved heads, 9.5 to 1 compression, and a 400 CFM 4 barrel carb on a single plane manifold. The Carter AVS is 425 CFM.

When I change to the smaller valves, it loses 13 HP and 10 lb/ft of torque.

That's a pretty cool tool for running these types of simulations without having to keep swapping parts in real life.
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Post by quitchabitchin » Wed Nov 07, 2012 5:44 pm

Here are the simulated dyno sheets:


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Chad Durren
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Post by Chad Durren » Wed Nov 07, 2012 7:30 pm

Thanks guys for the HP lesson. I used to be intimidated by pulling the heads off engines, for fear of screwing something up. I'm enjoying the process so far. I'll keep you posted on all the steps.
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
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Post by mfine » Wed Nov 07, 2012 10:47 pm

It all depends on how far you want to go and how much you want to spend, but since it is your money and not mine...

I would have the cylinders cut .030 over and rehoned and get new pistons even if the old ones look OK. While it is apart, err on the side of replacing too much rather than too little. At that point, you might as well increase the stroke and go from a 327 to a 350 (actually 355-357 since you over bored) since that will give you more torque (power) across the RPM band so a better hole shot and easier planing with a full load and over filled cooler on board. New heads to match the 350 and before you know it, you are making around 315 hp at 4500 rpm which should be a nice boost from the 230 hp stock motor without getting too aggressive in the cam or anywhere else. Externally it will look exactly the same as a 327 if that is important too you.

With ported heads and a better intake manifold (wont resemble a Q anymore) you could push it up around 375hp or higher, but I would advise against chasing ponies like that on a multi-use boat. Keep in mind the increase in speed will be close to the square root of the increase in hp so you end up spending a lot of money and burning a lot of gas for very little extra speed. You also risk losing performance at lower RPM and slowing the hole shot and making it harder to get on plane and up to speed. If you need much more than 300 hp, get a big block or perhaps therapy.

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Post by quitchabitchin » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:23 pm

The overfilled cooler is only a concern early in the day, the boat will get faster as the day goes on.
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Post by Chad Durren » Mon Nov 19, 2012 12:14 pm

Stopped by the machinist today to check out the heads. The original 327 heads were in great condition with no cracks. A little pitting around the exhaust valve seats but with a rebuild and new seats, they'll be good to go.

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Post by mfine » Mon Nov 19, 2012 2:54 pm

What will that cost you verses new heads with larger valves?

There is always the question of where you want to go and what you are willing to do to get there, but I think you mentioned more power. One of the better ways to get more power out of a 327 is to stroke it to a 350 and to improve air flow. On a rebuild the cost difference should be minimal, possibly cheaper for the 350. If you want to preserve the 327 and keep it fairly original inside and out, that is OK but you won't get much in the way of extra power out of it.

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Post by quitchabitchin » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:18 pm

Ditto...what Matt said.
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Post by Chad Durren » Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:31 pm

I hear you guys. I haven't ruled out a different head option. Once we have everything cleaned and inspected, we'll discuss the upgrade options. I'm not looking for a lot HP, just more than the original.

Cleaning them was cheap. I'll know what kind of shape the block is in later this week.
1952 CC 18' Sportsman
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Post by mfine » Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:00 am

If you are going to rebuild the heads anyway and replace the crankshaft, pistons etc. (full rebuild) then it will probably be the same cost or cheaper to build a 270-300 hp 350 as a 210-230 hp 327.

If the plan is to clean things up, and only replace what needs to be (reuse crank, pistons, rods, etc.) you will save money keeping it a 327, but it probably won't last as long.

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Post by quitchabitchin » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:50 pm

I would not replace the crank or pistons unless there is a good reason to (cylinder boring, etc.) or if you really want to upgrade the power. I can tell you from experience though, I sold my 327 crank in just a day or two on Craigslist for $100. I would imagine you could find a similar deal on a 350 crank if you wanted to go that route and be out just a few bucks, if any.

The choice on upgrading the heads for me would depend on the other choices you make. The original heads have 64cc combustion chambers which work well with the 327 stroke, they just have smaller valves. You may be able to have larger valves installed in your current heads. If you were to upgrade to a 70 or 72cc chambered head with the current crank, you will lower your compression and would need to upgrade the pistons to accommodate the larger chambers.

Because of the difference in stroke length on a 350 crank, the larger chambers would be okay with the stock pistons. Most, if not all, of the larger chamber heads would have the larger valves as well.
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Post by Chad Durren » Sat Dec 22, 2012 3:43 pm

Thanks for the Then & Now Automotive referral. Those guys rebuilt my Carter fuel pump and turned it around in one day. Looks fantastic.

Was going to rebuild it myself but the "Q" fuel pump uses parts from a couple different kits.

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1952 CC 18' Sportsman
1969 CC 19' Commander Super Sport

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