Active Active   Unanswered Unanswered

23 Lancer w/350 GLV

Keeping your powerboat under power is a lot easier with good advice. Post your power systems questions here.

Moderators: Don Ayers, Al Benton, Don Vogt

Ocean Scout
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:55 pm
Contact:

23 Lancer w/350 GLV

Post by Ocean Scout » Mon Aug 27, 2007 2:25 pm

Hello all,

Proud owner of a 1977 Lancer with original power and drive. Great boat for many reasons however I am having a couple of nagging problems that I thought I would share with you to see if others experience the same.

The first has to do with engine timing. My manual calls for 4 deg BTDC using single point distributor. I cant get it to go any less than 8-12 before the engine runs rough and dies. I've got it set where it "feels" right and am able to get in excess of 4200 RPM at WOT. Is this normal? and is it OK to leave it where it is without risk of internal damage?

The second issue has to do with idling. After engine is initally started and warmed up it idles fine and maintains good engine speed when shifting into and out of gear when leaving the marina. After running hard (3200-3600 RPM) for a while then bringing down to idle it runs at lower RPM and sometimes stalls when in gear. This makes docking manuevers interesting to say the least. I now keep a screw driver handy to adjust idle speed when returning to port.

Sorry for the rambling message, thoughts and ideas are appreciated.

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Fri Oct 26, 2007 10:41 am

First of all, I'm really sorry to respond to your note so late. Hope you had a great boating season.

In reviewing your notes, I find the 4-degree spec you are quoting to be incorrect. I believe the Q motors are intended to be set at 10-degrees BTDC, but this spec is not found in the 307-Q, 327-Q or 350-Q owners manual, it is only found in the Parts Manual under Engine Specs.

Chris Craft recommends timing be done at 500 RPM, and in their words, “To set the ignition timing use a timing light. The flywheel is provided with timing marks for right hand and left hand engines on its face and an ignition timing indicator is positioned on the front cover. With the timing light connected to the battery and No. 1 spark plug and the engine running at idle (500 RPM) rotate the distributor so that the timing light shows the flywheel timing mark directly in line with the ignition timing indicator”

Therefore, no wonder the boat won't want to time down to 4 degrees !!

The centerline of the timing dimple on the flywheel is set at 10.0 degrees advance,(aka btdc).No other marks or lines are present,no confusion that way .The dimple has a range from edge to edge of 9.5 degrees to 10.5 degrees .That is set at 500 rpm in gear or dockside at 500 rpm . Many people seem to prefer the 10.5 degree setting, on the edge of the dimple.

On old motors there can be many things needing attention simultaneously, and it is not often so convenient to be able to turn an idle adjustment and fix the issue, because that could be only half or a third of the problem.

A likely cuplrit would be the carb, which may need a cleaning of the idle jets or entire internal system. I would invest in a can of carb cleaner, pull those idle screws out, flush everything out, see what happens.

I have tuned many an engine by ear, listening for the most comfortable spot on the distributor. This is sometimes more appropriate for customized motors that no longer can rely on the factory setting. On Chris Craft motors, however, I have not been able to improve on the factory setting recommendations for overall running. Therefore, tune to the dimple on the flywheel as CC has indicated !

Motors that run good at WOT and don't idle down well, sometimes have a little air leak around the gasket or a faulty PVC connection. This leans out the mix at low speed, but still allows things to look good at high speed because the high volume of air at high rpm is not really affected by a small air leak.

Valves that are set too tight can cause poor low speed runnig too, and the Ford 427 is especially sensitive to this, and I suspect the Q series is as well.

Distributor springs can also affect the ability to idle down if they don't return the rotating armature the points are secured to all the way back. I was rather horrified recently to pull the points armature off of a 327F to replace the system with a Pertronix ignition system, only to see inside and find rusted and corroded springs. I ordered new ones and have yet to install those.

I like to keep clean plugs in my motors, and I have recently gone to a very low resistance plug wire. For reference, it is the splitfire wire system, and upon testing it with an ohm meter I found the marketing hype to actually be accurate on this product, the resistance is incredibly low. I took a tip from a buddy on this one, and since I was amazed at how his motors started and ran, I plunked down the cash for a pair of these and have not been disappointed. It is just one more link in the chain of reliability.

Hope some of these comments help. It sounds like you have a healthy engine if it can make the rpm you noted.

Regards,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

Wood Commander
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:48 pm
Location: Seattle area
Contact:

Post by Wood Commander » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:50 pm

I think that the later (1977 in this case) Lancers had a different engine in the GLV, rather than a Q. I've never seen one in person but did look at a boat on the internet for potential purchase that had a GLV that was shown to me in photos. After asking some fellow ACBS chapter members about the G engines, I was told that they were built more like a generic marine engine with some more common parts than the older Chris Craft engines were. Things like manifolds and some of the pumps maybe. I can't recall if they were flywheel forward or flywheel aft, maybe Ocean Scout can give us some information about that.
The G engine was probably coming at a time when Chris Craft was heading toward ending the Lancer series and introducing the replacement Scorpion series of sport boats. This was also signalling the end of the Chris Craft engine program and marked the move into Mercruiser power trains in the late 1970's and on into the 1980's.

I think that the information on timing and etc. that Paul has provided is pretty good advice.
I might only add that there could possibly be some confusion about timing marks if your flywheel or harmonic balancer might have timing marks for both standard and opposite rotation engines marked on them.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Mon Oct 29, 2007 4:41 pm

I was under the impression we were discussing the QLV engine series. Sorry about that ! Here is the 307 version.

regards, Paul


Image
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

Ocean Scout
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:55 pm
Contact:

Post by Ocean Scout » Tue Oct 30, 2007 1:11 pm

Thanks for the replies.

It is a GLV not a QLV like I had in my past 19' Lancer. Sorry if I didnt make that clear. Actually, it isnt branded as a Chris Craft engine. It's a Marine Power.

There are no dimples in the flywheel to view as it is aft. There is an automotive type scale with increments either side of 0 and a slot in the harmonic balancer. It is difficult to shine a light in there making issues more complicated. The manual provides two settings based upon single or dual points. It also shows quite clearly which side of the 0 is BTDC depending upon rotation.

After I posted the problem I began to notice 'pinging' at higher RPM's and not wanting to cause harm throttled back. This limited me to approx 3200 RPM for the rest of the season.

Not sure if it was fuel related or if because of the over-advanced timing I was getting pre-ignition.

It keeps coming back to the carburetor. Perhaps the float level is too high? as was suggested by a fellow at the marina.

I'm not sure, but its in the rearview mirror for this year. Its a shame as the boat is perfect otherwise.

Thanks again for the input.

THE RAZZ
Posts: 583
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:52 am
Location: OAKLAND, CA
Contact:

Post by THE RAZZ » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:34 pm

re the pinging above 2000 rpm.

Idle the engine/ watch the tach/ retard the distributor a fraction/ note 100 rpm drop on the tach/ WOT under a load (making way)/confirm the ping is gone.

If not, repeat above until ping is gone (100 rpm at a time/small increments). When there is no ping, check timing mark with timing light to confirm.

Ping is detonation; stop detonation - retard the distributor by small increments until you find the timing. Good luck.
1942 17' barrelback 71923
1987 21' CC Stinger

rgmxk22
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:49 pm
Location: Ohio
Contact:

23 Lancer w/350 GLV

Post by rgmxk22 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 1:04 pm

Hi All,

From reading your post that states the GLV is a flywheel aft engine set up like an F-series Chris Craft engine, the first thing I would check on your engine is if the harmonic balancer is still good.

It is fairly commony on Chevy/GM based engines for the harmonic balancers to go bad when the rubber cushion between the inner and outer rings of the balancer fails and lets the outer ring slip. When that ring slips, there goes the accuracy of your timing marks.

I've had it happen to me in the past. Now unless the balancer is really bad, it might be difficult to see if the outer ring/timing marks have moved. Some times the only way to check is to compare it to a new or known good balancer. I always compare where the timing mark on the outer ring is in relationship to the keyway in the center of the balancer that slips onto the crankshaft.

Maybe you have a knowledgeable, good auto parts store in your area that would be able to check yours or compare it to a new one if you took yours off and brought it in to them.
Hope this helps,
Ron

rgmxk22
Posts: 164
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2008 10:49 pm
Location: Ohio
Contact:

23 Lancer w/350 GLV

Post by rgmxk22 » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:47 pm

Hello again All,

I had another thought on this problem and how to check if the harmonic balancer has slipped and the timing mark is now not where it should be.

One way you could check this does require a little bit of mechanical skill, but it's not too bad. If you can put the engine's number one cylinder's piston in top dead center (TDC) or what can be called the firing position, you could see if the marks are out of whack.

The easiest way to be sure you have that cylinder at TDC is by rolling the engine over by hand with a socket on the harmonic balancer's mounting bolt (the large bolt in the center of the balancer that bolts the balancer to the crankshaft) (make sure you turn the bolt like you would be tightening it so you don't losen it) or turn it over with a prybar on the flywheel IF you can get to it. Remove all the spark plugs to make turning the engine over by hand easier.

Now I would take the valve cover off the head on the side of the engine that has number one cylinder on it. Figure out which of the two valves over number one cylinder is the intake valve and now your ready to go.

Roll the engine over by hand and watch the intake valve for number one cylinder. As you roll the engine over, you'll see the valve open (the valve spring will compress). Keep turning the engine by hand and watch the intake valve close (the valve spring will decompress) After the valve closes, keep turning the engine over by hand.

As you keep turning the engine over and place a long piece of wire in the spark plug hole for number one cylinder. (make sure the wire is long enough you can't lose it down inside the cylinder. A piece of wire coat hanger appx. 10 inches long or more should work well) Hold on to the wire and keep it against the top of the pistion as you turn the engine over.

You'll feel the piston push the wire up as you roll the engine over. When the pistion gets to the top of the cylinder, you'll feel the wire stop moving out of the spark plug hole. You'll now have the engine very close to TDC/firing position. If you go a little bit past it, it should be OK to turn the engine the other way to get it back to TDC. I know I said to only turn it with the harmonic balancer bolt so to tighten the bolt, but with no spark plugs in the engine, the chance of you losening that bolt is pretty slim.

Now when you are pretty sure that you have the number one cylinder's pistion at the top of the cylinder (TDC), look at your timing marks. The mark on the balancer should be very close to the zero on the timing tab (metal piece with all the numbers stamped into it you use to set the timing.

If your balancer mark basically lines up with the zero, your balancer is probably ok. But if it's off by very much from the zero, I'd be very suspicious of the balancer being bad and the timing marks being slipped out of where they should be. OH it would make this test a lot easier if you can find a helper to slowly roll the engine over while you hold the wire in the cylinder and against the piston.

I hope I made this clear enough and it is helful.
Ron

Ocean Scout
Posts: 11
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2007 1:55 pm
Contact:

Post by Ocean Scout » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:07 pm

Ron- Thanks for the advice; I didn’t think it was possible for the balancer to move. I will verify next time I change the plugs.

But first an update...I've been reading a lot of threads on this site and it always came back to the ignition coil. Currently running a Mallory Voltmaster that specs out OK when cold using an ohmmeter, so I was looking into all sorts of other components that could be causing these symptoms.

While I had my arms in there one day, I inadvertently removed one of the wires from the distributor. The engine started fine and was running OK at idle. I saw the loose wire and put it back into the distributor, but when I did I noticed that there wasn’t any arcing of spark from the wire to the contact point on the cap. Nor was there a noticeable increase in the RPM. This was enough for me to invest $50 in my problem and buy a new coil. Presto! problem solved. The spark arcs when the wire is ½” away from the cap and we now have consistent RPM returning to dock as leaving.

I haven’t put a timing light on it yet, but used a power timing technique suggested by THERAZZ (above) where I would push it up to WOT (4300RPM) and listen for the pinging and continue adjusting until it was gone. If both ends sound fine (WOT & idle) then I’m happy, thanks for all your advice.

Its like having a fresh set of legs, WOT= 39 kts.

THE RAZZ
Posts: 583
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2006 9:52 am
Location: OAKLAND, CA
Contact:

Post by THE RAZZ » Sun Aug 03, 2008 10:10 am

re dynamic timing-WOT: worry about the top end- 4300 rpm- no damage can be done at idle. We listen for a ping-rattle then idle and retard 100 rpm. The idle is just to give the retard a number- any small number works but at that idle speed no damage can be done (unless its so advanced it backfires when cranking to start).

We're interested in the top end and avoiding detonation (ping-rattle) in the cylinders because that is destructive. Thanks for the update re the cause of missing. It helps knowing what the fix is.

On a very very distantly related issue- we were working on an ignition issue last week and accidently noted the copper strap between the solenoid and starter terminal was hot. Heat only comes from resistance. Cleaned strap at contact, terminals and used star washers. Strap is cool. Just added terminal connections to periodic check list.
1942 17' barrelback 71923
1987 21' CC Stinger

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests