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Pricing of the crafts we own.

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NOT Firewood
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Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by NOT Firewood » Thu May 02, 2013 10:19 pm

In the past year I have been looing for a 22' Sportsman, I have looked again and again at web sites,ebay and dealers. This is what I have found the web sites to me are overpriced, since nobody pays to put these Ads on the sites I question are they really trying to sell, do they think that they will post the price at 4-5000 over the mark and if sombody else bites all the better for the seller. In turn then other sellers see this price and figure that this is the going price even though the don't see that the are not selling. Now I feel that they are overpriced because alot of these boats are are still on web sites, I say sites becasue I have seen boats that are on more than one site at different prices. Really if it was 20 years ago where sellers had to buy ad space in papers would they keep it in the paper for a year over priced? Ebay is the same thing but you don't know what you are getting, so a big crap shoot. And dealers, well if you can find a honest one good for you.
So there has been alot of discussion about getting new young blood in this hobby, to help the hobby out if boats that are really for sale list a proper price then the boat will sell and guys who don't really want to sell, don't list. Then if more guys can get hooked into the hobby and then there will be more buyers, the more buyers that are our there the higher the demand and more dollars you can ask for. Make sense?
But going back to why I started this post where does one fine out where good average real price of where the market is i.e what are boats selling at?

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Doug P
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by Doug P » Thu May 02, 2013 10:44 pm

Hagerty did have a valuation guide on their web site.
Keep in mind....a boat is worth what someone will pay for it. The best time to buy is end of season.

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quitchabitchin
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by quitchabitchin » Fri May 03, 2013 6:40 am

For eBay, run an advanced search to show only boats that actually sold. This will give you a good idea if you can find enough boats that actually fit the criteria. It costs about $50 to post listing n eBay for a vehicle, so I wouldn't assume that these folks do not want to sell their boats. Have you talked to the Antique Boat Center in Cincinnati? They are one of the largest antique boat brokers out there.
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charlesquimby
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by charlesquimby » Fri May 03, 2013 8:36 am

Right now I have two boats on two different brokerage sites, and I will pay for the ad through the brokers' fee. As far as pricing goes, I agree that, up to a point, it's whatever the traffic will bear. Right now, it appears that folks are not buying big toys. So I get the latest" Rudder" and spot a 1949 25' Sportsman (half-page color) priced at 129,500. Seems kinda high, but these are real popular right now, so that may be part of the problem finding one. Low pricing does get people into the hobby, but it has its drawbacks. Here is a case in point: When I was getting into wood boats back in the early 70s, I had several project boats in the yard. One was a faded but sound '54 Shephard utility with all the correct hardware, etc. An aquaintence pestered me for months to buy it...just had, had to have it. Sold it to him way cheap because he always wanted a wood boat. The glow wore off fast...too much work, wife complained, neighborhood eyesore, blah-blah. Instead of letting me know he was through, he had a party and burned it. Well he really didn't pay much for it anyhow, so he just cut his losses. I now try to sell at prices that make the buyer appreciate the value of what he has, or at least weed-out the impulse buyers. CQ

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drrot
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by drrot » Sat May 04, 2013 9:47 am

I think price varies a lot depending on what has been done and the quality of the work. Most boats have to be seen to justify or discount the price. I've seen U-22s sell for $1000 and for over $50,000. Wide range.
Paul H. has a U-22. Contact him. I think it's for sale.
Jim Staib
www.finewoodboats.com


1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
1968 Century 17' Resorter FG-68-174

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tkhersom
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by tkhersom » Sun May 05, 2013 6:50 am

I have to go with Doug P on this one. The value of anything is what a seller will agree to sell it for and a buyer will agree to pay for it.

I was quite surprised to see the ad in Rudder for a 25' Sportsman for $129,500.00, but the real question is "Will anyone pay that for it?". I know someone who just sold a Hacker with a Scripps 302 for less than that. Much better deal in my opinion.

If you question supply, demand, and desirability just go to Kratz's website. http://www.antiqueboatsales.com/Antique ... rSale.html

You will find a 18' Cobra with an KBL for $129,900.00 and a 21" Cobra with a Cadillac for $325,995.00. What adds the $196,095.00 three feet of Mahogany, the Cadillac engine? Apperantly neither because there is a 21' '56 Capri with a Cadillac listed for $69,995.00. You could own 4 1/2 Capri's for the one Cobra, and it is almost the same hull. Price of fiberglass finns on the commodities market must be out of sight.

Final example. Scroll down a little further on Kratz's site and look at the two '61 Capri's. Both the same engine, offered by the same dealer with the same warranty, and both "appear" to be in great shape, yet one is $135,000.00 and one is $69,995.00. And the less expensive one seems to come on a nice trailer.

OK I'm done, that's my rant for today. :lol:
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

Peter M Jardine
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by Peter M Jardine » Sun May 05, 2013 8:48 pm

One of the problems in the vintage wooden boat industry is the sample size. If you compare it to the vintage car industry, the sample size is maybe 5% of the same sample when it comes to specific models. If you look at Chris Craft numbers, a big production is over 1000, in the case of the U-22 the number is over 2000. Sample sizes make things interesting, because it doesn't mean a small number boat is going to be valuable. U-22's have value because they are a model that has good user application, and that on top of it's vintage makes it a good solid investment if bought at a reasonable price. It also means there is typically more tolerance to 'user' based restorations, ie new engines etc.

I have some experience in the vintage car business, and boats are definitely a more complicated up and down, especially production boats. In my case, with a larger CC boat in the stable, there is a classic reverse value thing going on. The big boats cost so much money to maintain and restore, that they have less value than the smaller boats. This may change, but only because the sample size will get so small that it is forced that way. That will also mean that less than 10% of the big boat production will likely survive.

My recommendation is that someone wishing to buy a vintage CC do as much research on as many websites as they can to establish prices............then almost more importantly, establish what the difference in restoration qualities does to that model of boat...... and finally, what kind of boat do YOU want. Is it a showboat? Is it a boat you want to restore? Is it a family boat where reliability and fun is more important than having a vintage correct collector boat? Those are choices that have to be combined with what you intend to pay, and what you expect to get back out of the boat when you choose to move on. Frankly, the real expense of a collector boat versus a collector car is the ongoing expense of maintaining something made of wood.

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Doug P
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by Doug P » Sun May 05, 2013 11:07 pm

Good explanation. :)

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tkhersom
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by tkhersom » Mon May 06, 2013 7:20 am

Well put Peter!

I know I was shocked at how inexpensive the purchase price of bigger boats is when I started looking. Orignally I just figured if a small lake boat was $X then a cruiser must 2 to 3 times that. I now realize the expense with cruisers comes in the form of maintainance, transport, and storage. Of course another challange is that a lot of the storage yards no longer allow the owner to work in the yard (mostly insurance reasons).

It is a very interesting dynamic.

To the question of what kind of boat do "I" want? Like most of us I want one of each. (a great user boat, a show boat, something rare, something I can spend a week on,..................................................does the list ever end?)
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

Peter M Jardine
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by Peter M Jardine » Mon May 06, 2013 11:33 am

Oh yes, generally the list of boats the real enthusiast want is looooong. Lets face it: the people who have gone as far to join clubs and attend events are probably a smaller percentage of the people who still have an interest in vintage wooden boats. There are lots of owners out there who simply use their boat, do a little bit of their own maintenance, but don't participate a lot in organized collector boat activities. As a club, the challenge is to engage those people too.

For me, the 'what kind of boat do I want' part is the most important. I believe in stewardship, but I quite simply like the feel and smell of wooden boats. I grew up with them. They keep me connected to my childhood. I think they're cool. On a personal note, I like the way a wooden boat makes me feel when I use them or even work on them. Some people garden, some people golf. I work and use wooden boats, and woodwork generally, as my therapy in life.

One thing I am quite emphatic about: No one needs to maintain a wooden boat as a museum piece in order to be a part of the wooden boat community. There is importance to a high standard of preservation, no question. Without exacting restoration, we don't see what vintage items were really like in their youth, although I dare say modern restorations eclipse the standards of original finishes all the time. The real importance of owning and maintaining wooden boats is to use them. They were meant to use and enjoy, and their makers and designers built them for just that. Yes, they can be admired, and are, but it would be a real shame not to see a fine wooden boat doing what it was truly built for, just like our header photo's demonstrate. :wink:

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BrokenRule2
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by BrokenRule2 » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:39 am

tkhersom wrote:Well put Peter!

I know I was shocked at how inexpensive the purchase price of bigger boats is when I started looking. Orignally I just figured if a small lake boat was $X then a cruiser must 2 to 3 times that. I now realize the expense with cruisers comes in the form of maintenance, transport, and storage. Of course another challenge is that a lot of the storage yards no longer allow the owner to work in the yard (mostly insurance reasons).
Cruiser folks need to chime in on this... I found that owning a cruiser was not much more than a runabout. For what I would have to pay for a truck and storage for a trailer boat (did have one 15 years ago) I found it was the same to keep our 32' in a cover berth. Lucky I have a yard two hour cruising distance on the water that allows owners to work on their boat. Another one is less than an hour but does not have a railway.

A good 32' cruiser goes for about $10K - far less than a U22 of the same quality. Maintenance is a bit more - I put $3K a year towards that. As compared to a newer fiberglass boat with payments - my wood boat is far less. I burn 10 - 15 Gals/Hr.

PLUS - I cannot escape (from the wife) to the marina (the cruiser has a refer, microwave and a bed) every weekend in June to varnish a newer fiberglass or a wood trailer boat!

It is hard to put a price on a floating wood man cave.
1959 40' Connie "Lucky Girl" saga of a free boat!

Peter M Jardine
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by Peter M Jardine » Sun Jun 16, 2013 11:33 am

I have a 36 foot cruiser, and to bring the boat to modern standards has required at least three to four times the cost of a runabout. Most of the time I find that wooden cruisers live in a state of slight decline..... major issues are gradually appearing but the overall size of the boat allows for some degradation without a real safety issue. Eventually, an insurance survey says nope, we ain't insuring this anymore. If an owner has no insurance, then they can pretend their boat is in good shape, but it probably isn't. With a 50 year old larger wooden boat (or older) it isn't a question of whether there is rot, it's where, and how much. The cruiser population dies off because of the immense cost of major work. This last summer, my rebuild on Vanora required about 3500 dollars in mahogany alone, and that was only a small percentage of the boat surface.

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BrokenRule2
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by BrokenRule2 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 12:30 pm

Since I now have my man cave up for sale (since August) I am finding out price is up to the buyer - if they can find insurance... you have to sell real cheap. Or have a buyer that can afford to carry liability only. I've had four solid buyers that wanted to buy only to be stopped at the insurance point. By next spring I might have to give it away!
1959 40' Connie "Lucky Girl" saga of a free boat!

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tkhersom
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by tkhersom » Sun Nov 24, 2013 5:11 pm

BrokenRule2 wrote:Since I now have my man cave up for sale (since August) I am finding out price is up to the buyer - if they can find insurance... you have to sell real cheap. Or have a buyer that can afford to carry liability only. I've had four solid buyers that wanted to buy only to be stopped at the insurance point. By next spring I might have to give it away!
Wow, Huge change in the tone of your post between June to November. :shock:

I hope there are not health issues that have created this radical change in attitude.
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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BrokenRule2
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by BrokenRule2 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 6:23 pm

Not health; nothing wrong with the boat; wife's got a new hobby; no time and too little $$$.
1959 40' Connie "Lucky Girl" saga of a free boat!

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Doug P
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by Doug P » Sun Nov 24, 2013 7:28 pm

Deja vu....all over again :(

jahearne
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Re: Pricing of the crafts we own.

Post by jahearne » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:49 am

BrokenRule2 wrote:Since I now have my man cave up for sale (since August) I am finding out price is up to the buyer - if they can find insurance... you have to sell real cheap. Or have a buyer that can afford to carry liability only. I've had four solid buyers that wanted to buy only to be stopped at the insurance point. By next spring I might have to give it away!
Bring your boat up to the Delta, I'll find a spot for her - insurance or not. I've seen her posted on Craigslist. Sorry to hear about you wife's changes in hobby. No longer fishing. On the bright side, I got my 8 year old nephew addicted to fishing. Might be a few before he can afford a boat. There's another member that I've lost touch with named Joe. Health issues unfortunately. His boat just got haul out on the hard.
John & Wendy

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