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No Gas thru New Filter

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Moosemeat
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No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:11 pm

My 1947 U-18 came with a rebuilt engine and a few 'improvements'. One of these is a '50s Mallory distributor that I cannot find parts for and water separating gas filter. I replaced this unit, a white NAPA item. It sits below the fuel tank at a 45 degree angle. The line runs down from the top of the tank to this filter and then to the engine. The installation instructions on the filter say to "follow priming instructions", but there are none. I have used an outboard style fuel priming bulb to no avail: I can't get gas thru the fuel line to the engine. Very frustrating.
Any ideas?

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drrot
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by drrot » Mon Aug 05, 2013 6:18 pm

Jim Staib
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Peter M Jardine » Tue Aug 06, 2013 10:15 am

Think of the water fuel separator as a can that allows water to sit and gas to pass..... water is heavier than gas, so it sits in the bottom of the separator. Having the filter at a 45 degree angle defeats that purpose almost entirely. That said, you have some other places that could be plugged, especially if the boat hasn't been run in a while. My suggestion is to take the separator out of the line, and then give it a whirl..... if nothing happens, you know it is probably the tank pickup that has crap lodged in it.

Moosemeat
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Tue Aug 06, 2013 11:52 am

Peter, I erred in stating the angle. It's only about ten degrees off strait up and down. It is a new filter, identical to the old one. I cannot get gas to flow thru it. I looked up how to prime a filter on the web. Some recommend filling the filter with fuel and then attaching it. Further reading revealed that they were talking about diesel systems. I am reluctant to try that with gas!
My boat has a new (2003) tank, and the boat ran OK at speed before. Thanks for the ideas though.

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by farupp » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:13 pm

This may sound dumb, but by any chance did you install the filter backwards? Have you tried using the fuel pump priming lever to manually pump fuel to the carburetor to fill the float bowl? If the filter is lower than the sediment bowl on the fuel pump you may have an air block. Finally, try what Peter said: take the filter out of the line and see if fuel flows then. If not, check the pickup in the tank. Try clearing it out by blowing air through the fuel line back into the tank.

Good luck.

Frank
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

Moosemeat
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Tue Aug 06, 2013 1:49 pm

Frank, the gas filter is a spin-on, like an oil filter, so I could not have goofed that up. The filter holder has copper lines attached to it, and I did not disturb these. I have been using an outboard style squeeze bulb to try and draw up the fuel. This bulb was placed on the fuel line by the previous owner. I removed it from the fuel system after a clubmate told it be it was a safety hazard at the St.Michaels show.
I will try the air blowback idea this PM. Thanks.

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by farupp » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:00 pm

Did your problem start after you replaced the filter AND removed the squeeze bulb? If so, try temporarily re-installing the bulb and see of you can get gas to flow. If that does get it to flow, at least you know what will make it work and that may point to an air blockage in the filter; hence a possible reason to prime the filter.
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

Moosemeat
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:18 pm

Frank, the problem started after I installed the new filter. The boat ran well without that priming bulb. I have tried using the bulb again without results. So, how do I prime this filter( without having a blast :shock: )? Thanks.

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Peter M Jardine » Tue Aug 06, 2013 3:48 pm

Here is one of the other common problems... you have to fill the filter canister with gas, and then pump fuel through all the lines, then the fuel pump, etc etc. It takes a fair bit of cranking on an old mechanical fuel pump to fill all that piping up.

This is a process of elimination.... bypass the filter first, and see what happens. I somehow doubt it is the separator.

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by farupp » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:09 pm

Peter, since he has a straight six engine (K or M) why can't he use the hand primer pump on the fuel pump to get fuel through the filter, fuel lines, sediment bowl and fuel pump to the carburetor float bowl. I used to do this when the fuel evaporated out of the float bowl on my M and K engines. It saves the battery and the starter.
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Peter M Jardine » Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:36 pm

Yep, absolutely can. It will take some pumping.

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by jim g » Tue Aug 06, 2013 6:06 pm

Fill the filter almost to the top with gas and put it on. Then it will work.

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tkhersom
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by tkhersom » Tue Aug 06, 2013 7:33 pm

I agree with several suggestions that you seem to be avoiding.

1) Fill the filter with gas.

2) If that does not work try bypassing the filter. Could be a defective filter (not very common, but stranger things have happened).

Actually I am more curious about your username. :? Moosemeat
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
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quitchabitchin
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by quitchabitchin » Tue Aug 06, 2013 9:23 pm

I always fill the filter with fuel before reattaching, it saves the pump from having to fill it. Also, you did the issue happen after you put the bulb in? Could the primer bulb be backwards? Don't they only flow one way?
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hughes6552
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by hughes6552 » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:27 am

I had a similar problem last year. I turned out to be an air leak in the gasket around the top of the filter.

homeiste
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by homeiste » Wed Aug 07, 2013 7:59 am

My boat has a fuel shut off valve at the tank that I closed to change the filter and forgot to re-open after changing it.
1960 18' Continental
1970 Boston Whaler Sakonnet w/ Bearcat 55 outboard

Moosemeat
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:08 am

I checked the filter's seal, filled it with gas, and used the fuel pump to fill the sediment bulb.
I then started it, and got a wonderfull smooth idle for about 15 seconds.
Is the sediment bulb supposed to have a little air a the top? I pumped and pumped until the bubbles stopped. Should I continue pumping until all the air is gone from the glass bulb?

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by farupp » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:28 am

Does your post mean that the engine only ran for 15 seconds and stopped on its own or you shut it off after 15 seconds? If I recall correctly (its been a while), you should not see any air at the top of the sediment bowl when the engine is running, but you may see some after the engine is shut off. You may see very small bubbles every time the fuel pump sucks gas out of the bowl into the pump and onto the carburetor to fill the float bowl.
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

Moosemeat
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Wed Aug 07, 2013 11:39 am

Frank, the engine stopped on its own. I have not had the opportunity to look at the bulb while the engine is running.
I also removed and sniffed #2 plug after the engine stopped. It was not wet with gas. Thanks.

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Beanstalk
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Beanstalk » Wed Aug 07, 2013 1:21 pm

After making any breaks in the fuel system piping on my K (allowing air into the system) I loosen both ends of the rigid fuel line that runs from the fuel pump to the carburetor, then separate the line from the carb and rotate it so that it points down. Snug up the fitting at the pump end, then place a bowl or jar under the down-turned open end. Manually pump the fuel pump until you get a steady flow of fuel into the jar. The pumping is easy as you are no longer working against the float valve in the carb, and the jar catches all the gas so you don't make a mess/bomb in the bilge. Then reassemble the line to the carb and tighten everything up. This primes the whole system. If you get good fuel flow but the engine still starves for fuel, you probably have a blockage in the carb.
1958 25' Semi-enclosed

Moosemeat
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:27 pm

I tried Beanstalk's suggestion this PM when the rain stopped. I pumped and pumped: nothing; no gas. My forearms are getting huge. I should go do some arm wrestling contests; make money for a new deck.
OK that's it. That #[email protected]%ing filters' got to go. I'm bypassing that sucker tomorrow. A waste of $20 bucks.
Now, without the filter, will my carbs be safe with just a sediment bulb? Can I use on of those plastic see through filters? I had them on a Fiat many moons ago. It worked great; when it got dirty you could see it.

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by farupp » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:53 pm

I have had just the sediment bowl on M and K engines and an additional inline see-through filter on various engines. I never had any trouble with either setup but it depends on how much crud is in your fuel tank. The sediment bowl will catch water and large particles and you can easily see the buildup in the bottom of the bowl. Very fine particles will get through to the carb's float bowl where they will settle out. An inline filter will catch the big particles, fine particles and water. There is also a NAPA filter that can be added inside the sediment bowl for extra protection. It is part number #3034 w/gasket. Try that.

Frank
Frank Rupp
1959 22-foot Sea Skiff Ranger
283 Flywheel Forward engine

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tkhersom
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by tkhersom » Wed Aug 07, 2013 6:56 pm

Any chance the filter housing is plumbed backwards?

Still haven't read an explination of the user name :(
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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mfine
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by mfine » Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:01 pm

No, your carbs will not be safe with just a sediment bowl.

No, you should not use the filters with the clear bowl in an inboard. Those are for outboard installation only. I don't know what the legal or insurance ramifications are but the manufacturers say it is a no no.

I would try a different spin on filter element, but also check the lines for a clog.

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by evansjw44 » Thu Aug 08, 2013 10:49 am

I had to deal with a similar problem on my brother's boat. If your tank is at 1/3 or lower you are trying to over come the the anti-siphone fitting in the tank that is there to bleed a little fuel line. With a hand pump it likely you can't lift fuel out of the tank. You may also have an air leak in the dip tube that goes into the tank. Once running, the engine pumps fast enough to pull fuel.
Jim Evans

Moosemeat
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Fri Aug 09, 2013 2:50 pm

Ok the rail has let up enough for me to get back to work. Mfine was right; in-line unsupported fuel filters are not kosher with the USCG. I decided to go with a whole new Raycor kit. Also the old copper line from the tank to the filter broke off at the coupling when I removed it. That may have been the leak. It started and ran at 1500 rpm until my cooling water bucket ran low. It shut it off to refill the bucket and was obliged to take a rain break.
When I tried to start it again, the starter would barely turn the engine over, too slow to start it. The battery is new this spring and I have been charging it. I tried to start it again and looked around to see a wisp of smoke rising from either the voltage regulator or the starter solenoid. I suspect the starter solenoid as it was hot.
Would a malfunction of this piece cause this problem? Is it an easy fix?

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Fri Aug 09, 2013 3:35 pm

Update; I started it again while my daughter watched. She is 90% sure the smoke came from the voltage regulator.

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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Theurkauf » Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:16 am

Seems like you've traded your fuel flow problem for an electrical issue. The joys of classic boat ownership! I'm no expert, but I don't think a defective solenoid would lead to slow cranking. A low battery seems more likely, which is consistent with a problem in the charging system. If you charge your battery and it cranks fine, the starter is not the problem. With the engine running, check the amp meter to see if it's charging. Note that if your have an original 6 volt system with a generator and a cutout, it won't charge at idle but should start charging around 1000 rpm. If it's not charging, swapping in a new voltage regulator or cutout is trivial. If that doesn't work, it may be time for an alternator/generator rebuild.

Moosemeat
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Moosemeat » Sun Aug 18, 2013 11:53 am

After many hours of frustration, I recalled Einstein's definition of insanity: doing the same thing over and over while getting the same results.
The good news is that Dave Van Ness fixed it. It was a combination of slightly out of adjustment ignition and carburetor things. Lucky for me he's only two hours away. Thanks to all for the advice.

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Paul P
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Re: No Gas thru New Filter

Post by Paul P » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:54 am

A side note:

Spin on filters frequently come in 2, 10, and 30 micron particle filtering types.

A 2 micron will clog fast and put a load on your fuel pump.
I don't believe there is any reason for a 2 micron filter on a boat.

As a point of reference, a single human cell is 19 microns.
Most carb jets and internals can handle way bigger than that.

best,

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

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