327Q Project

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:54 pm

I just wanted to post a couple teaser pics of the project as it starts to come along.

The original engine ended up with a cracked block, so I have stripped it of all essential "Q" gear, cooling system, mounts, tranny, exhaust manifolds, intake, etc. I am going to Virginia in two weeks to pick up another 327, not a Q but a standard rotation 327 that has been rebuilt. I will use the long block and put all of the existing Q specific on it. The boat is off the trailer with all of the hardware stripped and waiting for body work to begin. She will get a fresh paint job this Summer.

This week I finally got away from all of my other projects, 2 young kids, job, new hot water heater, etc., and had a chance to start prepping the parts for install. This includes stripping paint, priming and painting all blue parts and cleaning and lacquering the copper/brass parts. Here's a sneak peek.

Now, I know that the copper lines are usually painted, but the paint was peeling off and looked like crap, therefore, I chose to give it a little bling and add some detail to this engine. I won't be going to Tahoe to be judged anytime soon. I think the y look awesome with the clear coat.

decsdad · Post by **decsdad** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:46 am

this is a project i'll be keeping a close eye on as i believe the only difference between the '69 and '70 was the white stripe. good luck with it, you've motivated me to get some pictures posted of my '70.
if ever traveling through SW MI let me know.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:00 pm

The 69 & 70 are essentially the same boat with a few minor differences.

The 69 was sold in the Cavalier line, the 70 was sold as a Corsair.

100 were made in 69, 53 in 1970.

The 69 offered a 210HP 307Q or a 230 HP 327Q (230HP had a V at the end of the hull #), 70 only offered the 230HP version.

The dash on the 2 70's I have seen is molded plastic. The 69 was vinyl covered plywood.

The white stripe was added in 1970, I'm not sure if all of them had it or if it was optional.

The rear vents on Wilson Wright's 70 are on the back, mine are on top of the deck.

If this boat is new to you, be sure you winterize it correctly. The intakes are notorious for holding water and will crack on the bottom side. They are getting scarce and therefore very expensive. If you have any questions about the boat, feel free to contact me as I have been over nearly every inch of this boat and mine is pretty original, minus the white paint. It is a very fun boat that has a great holeshot and should top out around 40-43 mph.

If I get to Michigan, it would probably either be Burt Lake near Alanson or Bay CIty. My wife's sister lives in Bay City and we have friends at Burt Lake.

Don Ayers · Post by **Don Ayers** » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:28 pm

Looks great! More pics as it comes together

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Wed Mar 21, 2012 8:40 pm

A couple more photos. I have been busy cleaning, prepping, stripping, polishing, and painting parts. I am down to one or two more individual parts and the engine to paimt, which I am picking up from Jfrprops on Saturday.

I am getting pretty excited to put it all back together and fire it up. Then comes the body work so I have something to put it in.

Chad Durren · Post by **Chad Durren** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 1:27 pm

Looks great! These will come in handy when I take the leap into my next project soon. I just acquired a '69 Commander SS with a 327Q V-Drive. I'm currently looking for the the V-Drive. Mine is missing.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:44 pm

I'm super jealous. I love those boats. The funny thing is when we bought this boat, the last time it was titled and registered, it was as a 1969 Commander SS....I wish it were true.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:48 pm

You will also find the Q to be some what of a bastard motor that has many of it's own parts, like the fuel pump. 99.999% of Chevy small blocks have the fuel pump mounted on the side of the block and you can get them inexpensively, not the Q. It is mounted above the cam in the timing cover and runs off of a special adapter plate bolted to the end of the camshaft. It costs much more.

Chad Durren · Post by **Chad Durren** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:53 pm

I'm curious if our boats share the same drive shaft angle. The drive angle housing between the reduction drive and the V-drive is one of the parts I'm looking for. The angle is usually cast into the part. The part below is a 20 degree angle.

Chad Durren · Post by **Chad Durren** » Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:02 pm

I'd also like to know what the "A" in the "QA" is.

dustoff135 · Post by **dustoff135** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 12:58 am

Hi Chad,

I am just like quitcha, very jealous. I'm living in Europe for an unknown time, so I have to live vicariously through other peoples projects. Could you post some more photos?
Or, for my personal collection, would you consider emailing some photos of your boat?
What is the hull number? How did you acquire her? I have not seen any for sale for a while.

Danke, Patrick

Paul P · Post by **Paul P** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:23 am

quitchabitchin wrote:
Now, I know that the copper lines are usually painted, but the paint was peeling off and looked like crap, therefore, I chose to give it a little bling and add some detail to this engine. I won't be going to Tahoe to be judged anytime soon. I think the y look awesome with the clear coat.

Eastwood has some very nice clear coat products that are normally used on mag wheels, so they are very durable. In addition I like to use GIBBS BRAND on aluminum and I figure it would do well on copper too.

http://www.gibbsbrand.net/

Looking very nice by the way,

Paul

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:37 pm

Thanks Paul. I used a spray laquer from Rust Oleum on the copper and brass parts. It says it is good to 200 degrees, which should be ok for all of these parts, considering that the boat never goes over 160.

I found a very simple way to brighten the brass and copper. I used to be in the chemical sales business namely industrial and janitorial products. One of our demos was to take a tarnished penny and put a small drop of toilet bowl cleaner on it and shine it up like new in a few seconds. So I filled a plastic tub with 6 or so inches of water and about 6 oz. of toilet bowl cleaner. I used an aerosol paint stripper to take off most of the paint, rinsed the parts, then into the tank for about 10-15 minutes. Then I pulled them out and used a wet Scotch Brite pad (the burgandy ones) and the parts went from dark to bright in seconds. Another quick rinse, a wipe down with a body prep solvent and on to the clear coat. It was actually pretty easy and didn't take that much time incomparison to using creme polishes. This works for aluminum as well. The only issue I ran into at all was that after the water was used for several parts, the residual copper in the tank would attach to the brass, but it came off with a quick scrub with the pad.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 7:48 pm

The latest update is this: I went to Virginia to pick up the engine that John in Va (jfrprops) had in his basement. The quick story is that it was pulled out of an old wooden cruiser with twins and sent out to be rebuilt. The boat ended up being burned and the other motor was pulled and John bought both. He used the trannys and the other engine. He fogged it and put oil in the cylinders and put it away, this was around 2000-01. After several conversations, we agreed on a deal and a weekend and by the firing order on the manifold thought this to be a standard rotation engine. I pulled the valve covers to find newer lightweight heads (production began in 1976) and then pulled the oil pan. The crank is actually a 305/350 crank and since the bore of a 327 and 350 are the same, this is now a 350 motor. The pistons look brand new and are aluminum. The cylinder walls still have evidence of being honed, so the story of being rebuilt seems to check out. Now the bad news, which isn't all that bad, it is as John originally suspected an opposite rotation motor. It has two timing gears in place of the chain setup. I will be using the old cam, which is good, and swapping out the timing gears for the chain, swapping the rear main seal and taking it to a good friend's shop to get the initial timing and setup correct. I am ordering a new set of lifters just to be sure because I was told the lifters break in to the cam and you should mark them to ensure they are matched up with the correct cam lobes. More pics to come.

mfine · Post by **mfine** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:10 pm

Check your pistons, they may need to be flipped.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 8:55 pm

What do you mean by flipped?

63constellation · Post by **63constellation** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:03 pm

I believe he is speaking of rotating the pistons on the wrist pins.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:14 pm

So that the grooves for valve clearance are on the bottom instead of the top? That wouldn't make any sense since the crankshaft, rods, pistons, and valves are all still in the same place, therefore if you flipped them 180 degrees, now the grooves would not line up with the valves anymore and the valves would hit the pistons. The crank will spin either direction, depending on which way the starter sends it. The cam needs changed because in reverse rotation, the compression stroke of each piston is changed and the cams are ground to open the correct valves at the right time. The timing chain needs to be installed to make both the crank and cam spin the same direction. And the rear main seal, depending on the one installed, could be designed to seal a left or right hand rotation. Some of the newer seals are universal and will work with either rotation.

mfine · Post by **mfine** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:30 pm

If the wrist pins are offset, they need to be put in backwards for a reverse rotation engine. It is possible your pistons are not offset or the guy who did the rebuild put them in "wrong" for the reverse rotation application.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Tue Mar 27, 2012 9:39 pm

I see, but you can install offset pistons either direction. They were designed to minimize piston slap on startup but some guys in the racing world did what most men would do, they said "I wonder what happens if I flip them over?" There is much debate as to wether it makes any HP difference but if they aren't hitting the valves now, they won't hit spinning the other direction. They would be flipped to the top of the engine (intake) or the bottom of the engine (exhaust) regardless of the way the crank turns.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 10:47 am

I guess the numbers on the intake manifold indicate standard rotation because they would hardly bother to change casting numbers just to be correct on reverse rotation engine...since they made so few of them?

Makes sense.

Hope this engine works good for Andy. By the way, I still have the standard rotation other engine...if anyone wants it....a few push rods etc robbed..but have lots of old parts in my shed.

John in Va.

mfine · Post by **mfine** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:19 pm

As far as I have seen, Chris Craft labeled the firing order that they actually used on the engine tag that was riveted to the exhaust manifolds. I would not trust anything from a GM casting, but after 40+ years even the CC tags may have been moved or replaced so pretty much nothing is reliable except your own eyes. Also CC numbered the cylinders differently than GM, so be careful when you run the plug whires to make sure you are using the CC sequence with CC numbers or the GM sequence with GM numbering and not a mix.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Wed Mar 28, 2012 5:26 pm

This motor came out of another brand of boat. I am basically just using the long block and swapping all of the other CC Q parts over to it. A friend is going to install the cam and timing chain at TDC (at the true #1 piston, which is CC's #8) and I will go from there. When you work out the numbers on paper, it is the same firing order just starting with 1 instead of 8 or vice versa. It's complicated but it works.

Paul P · Post by **Paul P** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 12:55 pm

Hi guys,

I would be careful using an intake to validate the rotation of a motor. If a pair of them are rebuilt together it is easy to swap one intake to another and the motor never knows the difference. On the 427 FE for instance all the intakes are identical, but on the reverse rotation motors CC had a guy with a grinder remove the standard firing order that came on the Ford iron products, so any time you see one with the firing order removed you know it at least at one time was intended for a Reverse motor.

Any time CC put a single motor in a boat it just about ALWAYS has a RH prop.

Beware, a standard rotation motor that is flyweel forward will spin the prop in a RH direction, but by some thoughts (in a machine shop) would be a standard rotation or LH motor.

The Q series is reversed in a boat as I understand many installations, so I would think the pistons in a single inboard application would be identical to standard automotive. There are many variations, including v-drive, etc. that come into play so I just post this as a caution.

best,

Paul

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:18 pm

Paul,

Here's the short story...When I discovered the crack in the block last October, I posted a picture of it here on Boat Buzz. jfrprops, John in VA, replied that he had a 327 in his basement that he would never use. The story behind the engine was that it was pulled from a twin cruiser, rebuilt at a local NAPA machine shop in Richmond and never installed back in the boat as the boat was burned. John bought both motors and transmissions. The other motor had not been rebuilt and he robbed various parts and both transmissions for another project. He fogged and poured a little oil through the spark plug tubes on the one that had been rebuilt and put it in a dry basement. After several messages and phone calls back and forth, we agreed on a deal. Part of those conversations involved the firing order on the manifold, which is that of a standard rotation, the same as a 327Q. It turns out that this is in fact a reverse rotation motor with the two gear setup on the crank/cam. I am still going to use the engine, I just will have to do a little more work now than I had previously planned on. Cam swap, timing chain setup, new rear main seal, etc. I have already started on swapping parts from one to the other and should have it running in a few weeks.....more pics to come.

Wood Commander · Post by **Wood Commander** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:29 am

Going way back up to answer a post by Chad, A "QA" was a Q engine mated to a V-Drive- as in the 23' Lancer-based Commanders. My 23' Lancer has a "QLV" which is mated to a Volvo 270 Outdrive. A runabout or cruiser with a "regular" style transmission would just be Q or QL.

And, I bet that you could just go ahead and run a regular automotive style (but made for marine use with the diaghram drain hose to the carb)fuel pump on a Q if there is room for the installation. The Q fuel pump set up is known for wearing out the fuel pump rod. A freind of mone has a cruiser with Q's and he has the room for the auto style fuel pump.

mfine · Post by **mfine** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:42 am

If you are going to change the fuel pump, I would go with a modern marine electric pump and an oil pressure cutoff switch. It will give you quicker easier starting with modern ethanol gas, so less wear on the starter. They also don't have the diaphragms that go bad or can leak gas into your oil. You get an overall safer more reliable and better performing system and they are not very expensive.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Fri Mar 30, 2012 5:10 pm

The fuel pump was replaced last year with a mechanical one. It was much more affordable and a lot less work to get a new one.

quitchabitchin · Post by **quitchabitchin** » Fri Apr 27, 2012 11:55 pm

A little progress made over the past couple of weeks. Pictures to come soon.

Block and heads are painted, flywheel and pulleys installed, front mounting bracket installed. That end looks good.

I need to order the new cam, lifters and timing chain so I can put that end back together. Just finished swapping oil pump pickups and baffle. The flywheel forward configuration has a long pickup tube to get the sump further down into the oil due to the angle. There is also a baffle plate mounted to studs on the main bearing cap bolts, so six of the main bolts had to be swapped in order to mount the baffle. Good news is that this block is a 4 bolt main, that will make me sleep a little better. I am also going to take the drain plug setup off of the oil pan and put it onto the Q pan, I despise sucking oil out through the dipstick tube.

I am beginning to collect several extra parts such as a 327 crank, intake, reverse rotation cam setup, etc. If anyone has a need for any of these parts, please let me know.

jfrprops · Post by **jfrprops** » Sat Apr 28, 2012 9:25 am

Glad it is going well....post the pics and keep at it!
John in Va.

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