Pre war CC Steering wheels?? Generic?

PK44 · Post by **PK44** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 2:03 am

I have heard that steering mechanism on at least pre war boats were sourced from whatever the automotive manufactures had left over. I was wondering steering wheel themselves were sourced the same way.

I have a 1935 CC runabout with the wrong wheel (a 50’s sportsman). Looking around at similar CC years and models, I have seen no 2 steering wheels the same. So I was wondering If any 30’s (non banjo) 3 spoke automotive steering wheel will do.

Regards, PK

Don Vogt · Post by **Don Vogt** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:44 am

I was looking for a photo of the standard wheel for the second half of the 30's for the smaller boats, at least, but don't have one electronically to send you. However, if you look at the california classic boats web site under chris craft, and then steering wheels, al has a reproduction version cc-259. There was only one wheel for these various models, sor far as I know. Whether they used more than one manufacturer or not, I do not know.

Yes there are a lot of people using the wrong wheels and they stick out like a sore thumb for those who know a properly restored boat.

PK44 · Post by **PK44** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 10:11 am

Thanks for the reply DonJ,

Yes Al’s seems to be the defacto reference, unfortunately there isn’t a great deal of detail in his drawing..

I rounded up wheels from pictures I have collected..

A) My guess as to the correct one based on Al’s drawing

B) Possibly one of those “sore thumb” wheels.

C) Looks to be what Al shows as a “30’s large runabout” wheel, Interesting in that this boat is a 35’ 19ft cusomlike mine and appears to be a very correct and a well done restoration. Odd that it would have the wrong wheel.

However, I think 35’s was a transition year, they may been pulling stuff out of the parts bin. On Al’s site, there really nothing listed specifically for a 19ft 35’custom anywhere. Everything is list as 36’-38’ for 19ft which makes me think again that the 35 was grab bag, maybe the 4 spoke was just in stock.

Anyway, any thoughts are appreciated.

Regards, PK

By kroak at 2009-04-05[/img]

Mark Christensen · Post by **Mark Christensen** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:19 pm

I have been trying to figure out what the correct prewar wheel is for a while. I think they might have used multiple different ones. I've seen several different styles of 3 spoke wheels on these boats and i still can't determine it. Here is a small collection of my "wheel research." Mind you they are all from 17' barrel backs from 1940-1942. But I imagine they would be the same as yours.

http://picasaweb.google.com/stolte.dans ... KhxayPwAE#

Mark

Brian Robinson · Post by **Brian Robinson** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 1:39 pm

The 1935-36 19' Custom used the black 4-spoke 17" wheel, CC part# 11360, and the Gemmer gear, part #120-37. This wheel was replaced with the 3-spoke, 5-tine banjo wheel early in the 1937 model year, beginning with hull number 48158.

Don Vogt · Post by **Don Vogt** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 7:00 pm

Well, i guess Brian has the definitive answer for the '35 custom. I believe, however, mark, that all the 17' barrelbacks that didnt have the banjo as a special order used the same wheel as depicted by al. Right, Brian?

Brian Robinson · Post by **Brian Robinson** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:13 pm

Right.

The smaller runabouts under 18' (beginning around 1931/32?) and many utilities of various sizes used the black 3-spoke wheel prewar.

Mark Christensen · Post by **Mark Christensen** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 8:27 pm

Which black wheel though? There are three different wheels in my album. Any tips?

PK44 · Post by **PK44** » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:14 pm

Thanks Brian, Definitive indeed.

So my picture "c" is correct. I guess given the authenticity of the rest of the boat. It would be a pretty glaring omission if it were wrong.

I guess the only question I still have is were these wheels sourced from automotive companies? I know it was just about 1937 that GM showed up with a awful identical looking banjo wheel...coincidence?

Mark,

I suppose you've nosed around Mitch Lapoints site? He seems to have a lot of barrelbacks and good pictures to boot.

Regards, PK

drrot · Post by **drrot** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:40 am

Wheel C looks awful close to a Ford Model A wheel

Don Vogt · Post by **Don Vogt** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 7:17 am

As I understand it, there were only a couple of steering wheel manufacturers in the country during the 30's that both the car and boat people used. Supposedly the 5 spoke banjo was the same as a '36? chev convertible.

PK44 · Post by **PK44** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:29 am

DonJ,

It sure looks identical. Every minuet detail and proportion looks the same with the exception of the center of the hub which does not have a throttle. At least later versions didn't.

The limited # of steering wheel manufactures makes sense. I would bet cc didn't make there own wheels for the same reason they didn't make there own motors.

The economys of scale make it absurd to tool up for such a limited production runs (I'm a product designer)

It also looks like it was in a # of other GM cars of that era, an upgrade I suppose.

Regards, PK

PK44 · Post by **PK44** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 11:54 am

drrot wrote:Wheel C looks awful close to a Ford Model A wheel

Drot, It sure does, I noticed that to, grampas barn fresh model A is parked right next to my boat. Hard to tell from the picture but, "C" seems to have slightly thicker spokes...don't know.

Apparently ford used that wheel in at least trucks up to 35...would make sense then.

But then the plot thickens, whats this on a 37'custom?

By kroak at 2009-04-06

Thanks for you seconding this "model A" notion,

PK

Brian Robinson · Post by **Brian Robinson** » Mon Apr 06, 2009 1:37 pm

But then the plot thickens, whats this on a 37'custom?

Could be an early '37. They did not get the banjo until January - four months into the 1937 production.

PK44 · Post by **PK44** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:52 am

Alright, my final tidbit of information. The only 4 spoke, sold wheel Al Shinner sells I'm 99 percent sure is the on above. The little 45 record looking thing in the middle is but one of the tip off, its a separate piece.

So, where does that leave the Model A looking one on picture "C" way above. Could it be that 1935's, being comparatively plain as they are, just didn't fuss about the wheel?

Regards, PK

P.S. That boat,"c" really was very well done

drrot · Post by **drrot** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:58 am

This is a new Model A wheel. It retails for $139. It cost over $1200 to get the banjo wheel in my U-22 restored. I'm sure with a savings like that several find their way on to boats.

Bill Basler · Post by **Bill Basler** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:28 am

Mark and others, I am going down the same path on the proper three spoke for a 1942 17-foot Deluxe.

I have watched this issue pretty closely over the years. My Deluxe is one of that you show in your collection Mark. Unfortunately my boat is probably the ugliest of the bunch. Oh well...I can take it!

There is not reason for me to think that my wheel is anything but original. The Gemmer steering gear is correct, as was most of the other hardware on the boat. The problem is that my wheel that you picture literally disintegrated to dust as I removed it from the column. I have dealt with several of these wheels now, and while some look pretty salvageable on the surface, they are generally very brittle and just looking at them causes them to crack.

One note about my wheel is that is does not have the thin grooved detail in the face of the rim. The face of the rim on mine is totally smooth. The grooves are just an aesthetic detail, but I notice that some of your wheel samples have them and some do not.

On the other hand, my 1936 Gar Wood also has a three spoke black wheel. I have not put the two wheels side-by -side and the boats have never been in the same town at the same time. The Gar Wood wheel looks very, very similar. In fact it may be all but identical...except, the Gar Wood wheel has two thin grooves in the face of the wheel.

Here is the Gar Wood wheel:

Don Vogt · Post by **Don Vogt** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:42 am

My original black 3 spoke wheel also had ridges/grooves around the far outer edge of the face of the wheel. '38 17' Deluxe.

dustoff135 · Post by **dustoff135** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:01 am

My previous boat is also included in Mark's hall of fame photo collection. I can't verify that is the original wheel, but it is a 3 spoke with the grooved detail on the face. I believe it measured 19 inches.

Mine was in relatively good shape and I sent it to someone in CA for restoration. It came back beautiful, but I recall seeing a small crack in it shortly after the boat was completed. No one else would notice, but I knew it was there. My point is that they are old and fragile and one might be happier with a godd reproduction. Good luck.

Don Vogt · Post by **Don Vogt** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 10:08 am

I think the standard 3 spoke black steering wheel of the period was 17". Isnt this right, Bill?

PK44 · Post by **PK44** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:42 am

drrot wrote:This is a new Model A wheel. It retails for $139. It cost over $1200 to get the banjo wheel in my U-22 restored. I'm sure with a savings like that several find their way on to boats.

D!#@, so your thought is a switch was made sometime after production and wasn't part of the original package.

My only arguments (driven by my pocket book) are:

1)The 1935 has a pretty bland dash compared to the 37 pictured with it's raised panels etc.

2)At the peak of the depression and the end of the production cycle for that wheel at ford, maybe an irresistible glut of them hit the market. That with the reality of the development cost for the new(?) 35 model, as a "tied me over" till the books were balanced, maybe they couldn't resist?

3) It just hard for me to believe with the no holds bared quality of the the restoration (C), they would skimp on a steering wheel. It doesn't really even resemble what we think should be there.

What a quaint and desperate yarn. Plausible but the more I write, the more far fetched it sounds. But those were troubled times and lack of adornment of the dash of the 1935 vs 1937 might reflect a tight belt...

If "if's" and "buts" were candies and nuts..

Regards, PK

Mark Christensen · Post by **Mark Christensen** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:35 pm

I think we have a good topic for the "purist" section of the next brass bell.

Bill, i've noticed also that some of the wheels have the grooves around the edges. I have yet to find out which one is correct though. I can't imagine yours would be wrong. I wish we could get a good picture from Al schinnerer at california classics. Anybody know him well?

Mark

Chris Dorflinger · Post by **Chris Dorflinger** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:47 pm

Just my input specifically on the '37 deluxe wheel. All photos from the Mariners Mesuem showed a four spoke wheel on the 17'. I think at the time Cali Classics wanted about $600. for a repro. As such I found mine at a forklift boneyard for ten dollars. Had just enough ware to look like it is the original. Had to buy a throttle leaver and horn button, but the wheel is exactly the right thing.

Don Vogt · Post by **Don Vogt** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:48 pm

why dont you just call him and ask. He is a pleasant fellow.

Bill Basler · Post by **Bill Basler** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 1:43 pm

According to Al Schinnerer, the pre war 17 Deluxes took a 3-spoke black, 17-inch diameter wheel with no grooves in the face of the rim. His molds were made some 25 years ago, off of a known original boat. As he puts it, there is a chance that some 17 Deluxe may have had a wheel with the grooved rim, but the sample boat that he had was a non-grooved wheel. Definitely a 17-inch diameter wheel, and this is accurate with the Materials Specifications for the pre war 17s.

My Gar Wood is another story. It is actually, an entirely different wheel. It is 15-inch diameter, and looks a bit "chubbier" than the pre war 17-inch Deluxe wheel. The Gar Wood wheel does have the grooves. Al also has a mold for this wheel and his mold has the grooved rim as well.

PK44 · Post by **PK44** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 2:03 pm

donj wrote:why dont you just call him and ask. He is a pleasant fellow.

I know Al, I made parts for him in my prototype shop, traded them for my boat.

I'd call him but it's been years and I've always felt awkward eyeballing his parts when he knows I can make myself anything he sells with a good picture.

But never mind Bill just did.

Regards, PK

Chris, Al's 2 peice 20's 30's 4 spoke goes for about $1200

Al Schinnerer · Post by **Al Schinnerer** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:39 pm

Hi guys,

Please don't be reluctant to contact me with questions, etc.

Regarding steering wheels, Bill Basler and I had a discussion about them today. He correctly summarizes our talk in his Apr.7 post.

Al Schinnerer

Don Vogt · Post by **Don Vogt** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:07 pm

Well, now we have the mystery of the grooves or not grooves. I wonder if don ayers or brian robinson have any invoices or spec's or whatever that might shed some light on this? Mine definitely had a grove or more accurately a thin ridge.

Bill Basler · Post by **Bill Basler** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:10 pm

Like so many things Chris-Craft, this may be another one of those mysteries. Since my Gar Wood wheel has grooves, and my Chris-Craft wheel doesn't, and since your Chris-Craft wheel does Don, I can only assume that there were a couple of automotive wheels that were darn close and that Chris-Craft used what was most plentiful at the time.

PK44 · Post by **PK44** » Tue Apr 07, 2009 8:31 pm

Hi Al, got a project that might bring shop out of mothballs, CNC serviced and all.

Bill,

So wheel “C”, way up top, could be legit? The hypothetical yarn I’ve been spinning as to how it could have legitimately landed there might be plausible? Making the boat passable?

Be interesting if it were brought up for a vote, what with all the knowledgeable minds that have weigh in.

Regards, PK

Pre war CC Steering wheels?? Generic?

Pre war CC Steering wheels?? Generic?

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