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drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

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bongocruiser
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drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by bongocruiser » Sun Jul 08, 2007 9:39 pm

This is a new one on me. I have a 1941 17' special with model K and it was running perfect until all of a sudden it started to slow down and the oil presure dropped to zero. I looked in the bilge and it was full of engine oil everywhere. I attached a picture because what appears to have happened is the entire drive shaft pulled out of the back of the transmission about 2 inches and took with it the transmission seal. I haven't opened the Paragon yet to see if something snapped inside but it occurred to me that when we put these engines in reverse there must be significant force pulling on that rear seal. Has anyone ever heard of this happening before? I assume I have to pull the engine out and buy some parts. All advice and comments welcome.

And Bill-the Brass Bell is fantastic. I've been a member for 22 years since it was the Chris Craft club and we were forced to change the name.
Joe Oliver
Lake Winola Pa

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Last edited by bongocruiser on Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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evansjw44
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Bearing Failure

Post by evansjw44 » Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:27 am

I expect you'll find that the seal failed after the bearing in the rear of the trans housing failed. The bearing takes all the thrust and pull and transfers the forces to the trans case. If you dumped all the oil into the bilge and lost oil pressure you could be looking at some significant engine damage.

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bongocruiser
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Any Paragon repair experts out there?

Post by bongocruiser » Tue Jul 17, 2007 9:17 pm

I pulled the engine out of boat (see post above) and
found the plate on the end of the transmission had completely disconnected from the transmission. The nut that holds it on had come off inside between the shaft coupler and the transmission plate. Of course when this happened all the engine oil quickly came out.

Image

Below is a picture of the trans end now and the threaded shaft in the middle of the trans end can be moved 1/8th inch in every direction. Is this normal? What I can't determine yet is if my damage is limited to the seal at the end or if I had a more catastrophic failure inside. There was no metal in the boat or transmission case. Could I be so lucky that I only need to reattach my face plate and put the nut on tight this time? It appears the nut came loose becuse the locking washer prongs were not bent up tight enough to prevent it from spinning.

Image

Thanks in advance.
Joe Oliver
Lake Winola Pa
1941 special 17'
1947 deluxe 17'

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drrot
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Post by drrot » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:54 am

Joe,
Hard to tell from photos but looks like the flange is cracked by the keyway slot. If it is not replace the seal and put it back together. Add some loctite for insurance.

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Mark Christensen
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Post by Mark Christensen » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:44 am

Joe,
Just a tip for photographing things up close. Use the macro button on your camera (looks like a little flower). It tells the camera to try extra hard to focus on things very close to the lens. The pictures will be alot more crisp as well, making it easier for us to ascertain what's going on with your transmission seal.

Mark

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by iamallthumbs » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:27 am

This is from an original post from 2005 but it reads like my most recent problem. I have a 1947 K with a paragon transmission. We were idling on the Yahara River through Madison Wi. this weekend and suddenly the power to the prop stopped and we were adrift. After a tow to a dock I tried to adjust forward but could not rotate the drum to get to the bolt. The prop shaft could rotate. Not having any options we got a tow. On the way, with the engine off, I was able to move the shift lever into forward and reverse. Later, while on the trailer I found that the shaft came out of the housing and I had many quarts of used engine oil in the bilge. Obviously the nut came off the shaft somehow and will have to be replaced. I have no idea if there is any additional damage to the transmission.

I will have the engine pulled for this work and want to have the engine looked over to find and correct the next problem before it occurs. There are not many sources for engine service around here so I will have a problem finding a capable mechanic and an honest one.

Short of a complete rebuild, are there something's that I should have the mechanic check over while the engine is out and any idea what I could expect to pay for having the engine removed, transmission seal and shaft repaired, and engine replaced?
Mike D.

1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-413 BOOMER (user boat)
1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-872 ZOOM-ZOOM (project boat)
1965 25' Folkboat SALTY DOG (lapstrake sailboat)
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Theurkauf
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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by Theurkauf » Fri Aug 08, 2014 3:00 pm

You mentioned trying to adjust the transmission when you where on the water, so I assume you would have noticed if the seal was off when you first lost power to the prop. If you dumped the oil after the boat was on the trailer, the engine should be fine, and the transmission may just need reassembly. If you do need a transmission rebuild, it shouldn't be that bad. The Paragon on my Model B was slipping badly and I had it rebuilt by a local marine transmission shop. They resurfaced the plates (new are hard to find!) and replaced all of the seals, and I think it was only around $350. It's been working fine for the past 2 years. By the way, are you sure you need to pull the engine? On my17 ft Sportsman, you just unbolt the shaft coupling and pull it back and as far out of the way as you can (I grab the prop and pull), detach the shift linkage, unbolt transmission, and then pull the transmission back and off. It's a half hour job. On a runabout, the engine may well have to come out.

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by iamallthumbs » Sat Aug 09, 2014 10:20 am

I got most of the oil out of the bilge and separated the coupling halves. The nut is on the tailshaft so that was not the problem. Therefore I assume that the tailshaft has disconnected from the engine. I am not sure if that is indicative of a more serious transmission problem. Can anyone explain how the tailshaft/engine is connected? Is there another nut at that end or is it just a spline? Figure 1 of the Paragon Manual appears to show threads on both ends of the shaft.
Mike D.

1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-413 BOOMER (user boat)
1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-872 ZOOM-ZOOM (project boat)
1965 25' Folkboat SALTY DOG (lapstrake sailboat)
Barn with room for more boats!

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by jim g » Sat Aug 09, 2014 8:32 pm

If the shaft attached to the coupler came out of the trans still attached to the coupler. Then the nut holding it on inside the drum came loose. The nut inside the drum has a lock tab like the one on the coupler does. You will have to remove the trans from the engine. When you do look down inside the drum { from engine side of trans } you will see the nut. one thing most people don't know is you should have 4 prongs on the lock tab. You must have the one that is bent 90 degrees. This prong goes into the slot and is what holds the lock tab in place to keep it from spinning. The other 3 prongs or tabs go up against the sides of the nut. You only need to bend one prong up against the nut. This makes the lock tab reusable as long as the 90 degree prong is still there. If the big splines are not damaged you should be able to reuse the shaft. It will be easier to install if you remove the coupler from the shaft as part of the coupler is a press fit into the rear bearing.

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bongocruiser
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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by bongocruiser » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:19 am

I had the original post, it was so many repairs ago I sort of forget but I remember I pulled the engine which made it an easy job putting the inside nut back on and no trouble since. It's worth a try to see if it can be repaired without removing the engine. Shouldn't be a big job if you find someone who thinks working on a Model K is more fun than work.

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by iamallthumbs » Mon Aug 11, 2014 11:58 am

Thanks for the information guys. Based upon the responses and a little research I am tempted to remove the transmission myself and see what I can accomplish. My biggest concern at this point is the need for gaskets, seals, etc. If needed, are such parts available?

Again, thanks for your help. Perhaps I can get the boat back in the water this year afterall.
Mike D.

1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-413 BOOMER (user boat)
1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-872 ZOOM-ZOOM (project boat)
1965 25' Folkboat SALTY DOG (lapstrake sailboat)
Barn with room for more boats!

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John D
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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by John D » Tue Aug 12, 2014 7:45 pm

Hi Mike - Others will agree and I was recently help tremendously by Charlie at Great Lakes Power. Phone: 800-325-6880 glower.com He is very knowledgable and they carry many Paragon parts.

John
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1956 22' Shepherd v-drive; 392 Hemi

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by iamallthumbs » Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:07 pm

I am attempting to pull the transmission and find that there is not enough room between the shaft coupler and the engine. I am working on removing the shaft coupler but it is a bear. I have been following the recent discussion about doing this and will try tomorrow. But can anyone explain how the transmission shaft fits on the motor? I am curious to know how far back the teansmission housing has to be moved to clear the motor.
Mike D.

1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-413 BOOMER (user boat)
1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-872 ZOOM-ZOOM (project boat)
1965 25' Folkboat SALTY DOG (lapstrake sailboat)
Barn with room for more boats!

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by jim g » Sat Aug 16, 2014 4:47 am

You need to raise the back of the engine until the head is level to pull the trans off in the boat.

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by mbigpops » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:21 am

I am installing my transmission today. The gear on the engine sticks out approximately 3 inches and that goes into the transmission. You will need at least that much clearance.

Mark
1953 CC Rocket Runabout "Rocket Man"

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by mbigpops » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:28 am

Here is a shot looking into the transmission. You can see the nut and locking tab. Now I see why Jim G says one tab as the others don't line up.
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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by mbigpops » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:30 am

Here is the engine shot.
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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by iamallthumbs » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:49 am

Is there enough room to back out the transmission if I can get the prop half of the coupling off and back out the shaft? About now I am thinking that I should consider this season shot and pull the engine for a clean-up, repainting, and reinstallation for next year. Bummer.

Thanks for all your advice.
Mike D.

1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-413 BOOMER (user boat)
1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-872 ZOOM-ZOOM (project boat)
1965 25' Folkboat SALTY DOG (lapstrake sailboat)
Barn with room for more boats!

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by jim g » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:11 pm

mbigpops wrote:I am installing my transmission today. The gear on the engine sticks out approximately 3 inches and that goes into the transmission. You will need at least that much clearance.

Mark

I hope you took your trans apart and cleaned the inside of the drum well. If not all the sludge that has built up is going to come loose and make your new oil look very old and dirty very quickly.

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by jim g » Sat Aug 16, 2014 10:13 pm

mbigpops wrote:Here is the engine shot.

Don't forget your special bolt that holds the crank gear on. It has the hole in it to feed oil into the drum.

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mbigpops
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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by mbigpops » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:09 am

Thanks Jim. I will contact you on Monday.

Mike D. - I have not installed my engine in the boat so I cannot help there.

Can anyone answer Mike's last question ?
1953 CC Rocket Runabout "Rocket Man"

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by jim g » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:32 am

iamallthumbs wrote:Is there enough room to back out the transmission if I can get the prop half of the coupling off and back out the shaft? About now I am thinking that I should consider this season shot and pull the engine for a clean-up, repainting, and reinstallation for next year. Bummer.

Thanks for all your advice.
Maybe, but I doubt it. I think the bottom of the trans will hit the hull before it clears the nose gear. Also if you do get the trans off this way make sure you pump the oil out of the engine or about half of the engine oil will pour out into the bilge.

To do it in the boat. Undo the coupler then shifter rod. Take out the rear mount bolts. Undo front mount bolts about an inch. Wrap a chain around the trans case were it bolts to the engine. Raise engine with hoist using the chain around the trans. Put short 4x4 blocks under rear mount and sit engine down. Place blocks on there side. Cylinder head will be level. Place a small aluminum plan under engine trans joint. To catch the oil that will drain out of the trans. The cheap ones you get at the grocery store. Undo nuts and bolts and remove trans.

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by JimF » Sun Aug 17, 2014 11:25 am

Just to add to Jim G, you may also need to disconnect the exhaust pipe and the water intake hose and keep an eye on the choke and throttle attachments and the fuel line and the oil pressure line.
1930 Chris-Craft Model 100 20' "MOXIE"
1940 Chris-Craft Red and White 25' "Old Paint"
1946 Chris-Craft Sportsman 25' "CinCity"

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by jim g » Mon Aug 18, 2014 8:12 pm

JimF wrote:Just to add to Jim G, you may also need to disconnect the exhaust pipe and the water intake hose and keep an eye on the choke and throttle attachments and the fuel line and the oil pressure line.

Thanks Jim for catching that. I knew I was forgetting something that need to be disconnected.

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by iamallthumbs » Wed Aug 27, 2014 9:39 am

Looking at the motor again, I do not see how I could rotate the aft up because of the way the engine sits within the rear seat bulk head. Even if I removed the cooling water return pipe at the cylinder head I don't think the engine will clear. Jim G. are you talking about lifting the aft end in a utility or is it really possible to use this method in a Runabout?
Mike D.

1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-413 BOOMER (user boat)
1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-872 ZOOM-ZOOM (project boat)
1965 25' Folkboat SALTY DOG (lapstrake sailboat)
Barn with room for more boats!

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by JimF » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:16 am

I think you may be right. In a small runabout the front of the engine might run into the deck beam behind the back seat. You may have to bite the bullet and pull the engine. If you have all those other parts disconnected, there is not much left to completely disconnect and then pull out the entire unit. It will then be easier to work on the transmission.
1930 Chris-Craft Model 100 20' "MOXIE"
1940 Chris-Craft Red and White 25' "Old Paint"
1946 Chris-Craft Sportsman 25' "CinCity"

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bongocruiser
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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by bongocruiser » Wed Aug 27, 2014 11:53 am

I've had the engine out a bunch of times. Aside from always missing something like the water intake or oil presure line, they come out easy. I make a mark on the wedges to help when putting it back. I usually call the local tow truck, they usually enjoy pulling the engine out and it only take a few seconds to have them plop it on my small trailer where it's easy to fix an paint.

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by jim g » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:05 pm

iamallthumbs wrote:Looking at the motor again, I do not see how I could rotate the aft up because of the way the engine sits within the rear seat bulk head. Even if I removed the cooling water return pipe at the cylinder head I don't think the engine will clear. Jim G. are you talking about lifting the aft end in a utility or is it really possible to use this method in a Runabout?
Yes. You can do it in a runabout. Just remove the rear seat back. Its usually screwed in from the back with 2 or 3 screws going through the deck beam into the rear seat back. Removing the seat back should not be a big deal. If you were replacing the generator belt you would have to remove the seat back.

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by jim g » Wed Aug 27, 2014 6:14 pm

bongocruiser wrote:I've had the engine out a bunch of times. Aside from always missing something like the water intake or oil presure line, they come out easy. I make a mark on the wedges to help when putting it back. I usually call the local tow truck, they usually enjoy pulling the engine out and it only take a few seconds to have them plop it on my small trailer where it's easy to fix an paint.

Just a note. You should have a screw in the hole thats in the wedge. The screw will hold the wedge in place. This will also keep the wedge from sliding forward when running the boat.

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Re: drive shaft pulled out transmission seal-lost all oil

Post by iamallthumbs » Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:53 pm

It has been a long winter but I did remove the engine and had it rebuilt along with the transmission. We found that the transmission shaft actually sheared off. Apparently there was enough friction on the two pieces to enable the shaft to spin until it finally separated.
Now that is it time to attach the transmission to the engine we find that the splines on the tail end of the engine shaft only engage approximately 1/3 of the gear teeth of the transmission. The engine and the transmission look exactly like the photos in this thread. Does this sound correct?
Mike D.

1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-413 BOOMER (user boat)
1947 CC Deluxe Runabout R-17-872 ZOOM-ZOOM (project boat)
1965 25' Folkboat SALTY DOG (lapstrake sailboat)
Barn with room for more boats!

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