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What is the best varnish/urethane to use on wood boats
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What is the best varnish/urethane to use on wood boats
I own a custom and classic car restoration shop. We are using the best urethane clears on our cars. When it comes to wood I get more people using varnish. Is this an old school approach or does it perform better? I was wondering what everyone thinks is the best clear to use on my new project Chris Craft. I plan to rewood the boat so the clear will be applied over new wood.
- J. William Tarbrake
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Marine application of automotive finish
Currently, I am running some experiments on the use of different automotive urethane clears over mahogany.
Test panels were stained with various brands and shades of filler stain,some areas were then given 2 applications of CPES ,some were not.
All panels were coated with multiple coats of PPG 2020, PPG 2021, and Transtar 6841.
Test panels were then placed outside and continually exposed to sun ,wind rain and snow.
After approximately 400 days, the areas which were not treated with CPES showed signs of delaminating. After 700 days these areas were over 50% delaminated. After 1000 days the untreated panels were almost completely delaminated. However,the panels which were treated with CPES showed virtually no signs of fading yellowing delaminating or cracking.
The only problem area was where I drilled a couple of holes to attach the panels to my building to keep them from blowing away or otherwise being removed .
There seems to be no difference between the PPG products and the less expensive generic brands of urethane clear.
I am now using this method of re-finishing for all of my current marine projects,including my personal boat "The Cats Meow"
Test panels were stained with various brands and shades of filler stain,some areas were then given 2 applications of CPES ,some were not.
All panels were coated with multiple coats of PPG 2020, PPG 2021, and Transtar 6841.
Test panels were then placed outside and continually exposed to sun ,wind rain and snow.
After approximately 400 days, the areas which were not treated with CPES showed signs of delaminating. After 700 days these areas were over 50% delaminated. After 1000 days the untreated panels were almost completely delaminated. However,the panels which were treated with CPES showed virtually no signs of fading yellowing delaminating or cracking.
The only problem area was where I drilled a couple of holes to attach the panels to my building to keep them from blowing away or otherwise being removed .
There seems to be no difference between the PPG products and the less expensive generic brands of urethane clear.
I am now using this method of re-finishing for all of my current marine projects,including my personal boat "The Cats Meow"
J. William Tarbrake
1967 Chris Craft 40' Constellation
"Cats Meow"
1967 Chris Craft 40' Constellation
"Cats Meow"
I'm curious, do the urethane products you used have UV blockers or is it the CPES that took UV out of the equation and protected the stain and wood?
I put a single application of CPES over stain/filler on a small area of my boat (toe rail) three years ago, however, I used varnish (thus, not urethane related) But, the area is in perfect condition compared to other areas without CPES.
Another question: Will the clear coat products you used withstand flexing without cracking or delaminating on a wood boat?
Al
I put a single application of CPES over stain/filler on a small area of my boat (toe rail) three years ago, however, I used varnish (thus, not urethane related) But, the area is in perfect condition compared to other areas without CPES.
Another question: Will the clear coat products you used withstand flexing without cracking or delaminating on a wood boat?
Al
- J. William Tarbrake
- Posts: 47
- Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 5:24 pm
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RE: Marine application of automotive finish
Al,
Every automotive urethane clear contains much UV protection.CPES however contains ABSOLUTELY NO UV protection. CPES is an adhesion promoter. That is why the areas which you coated first with CPES are is such good condition. The CPES is doing its job and keeping the varnish in place.
Automotive urethane clears by nature will withstand flexing an movement to various degrees, as they are made to be applied to semi rigid parts commonly used by all automobile manufacturers.
Bill
Every automotive urethane clear contains much UV protection.CPES however contains ABSOLUTELY NO UV protection. CPES is an adhesion promoter. That is why the areas which you coated first with CPES are is such good condition. The CPES is doing its job and keeping the varnish in place.
Automotive urethane clears by nature will withstand flexing an movement to various degrees, as they are made to be applied to semi rigid parts commonly used by all automobile manufacturers.
Bill
J. William Tarbrake
1967 Chris Craft 40' Constellation
"Cats Meow"
1967 Chris Craft 40' Constellation
"Cats Meow"
same as
CPES first, one very heavy coat, followed by lots of coats of varnish with light sanding (180-220) in between. Oh, don't start sanding until after about the 3rd coat of varnish. Some are experimenting with urethane but make sure it's UV protected and of a flexible specification if you try it. Smith's five year clear is supposedly a urethane that fits the bill; I haven't tried it yet. You should buy Rebecca Wittman's book "Brightwork". It's kinda the bible. Ed
1978 22' CC Dory outboard
I experimented with the CPES on an old piece of mahogany before I used any on the boat. What I found is that the wood doesn't take staining very well if the CPES is applied to the bare wood first. The best results were achieved by staining before application of the CPES. It appears that CPES penetrates through the stain and into the wood to provide the protection that's intended as well as provides a great primer for the varnish (or urethane).
Al
Al
Yes, I agree with you Al about the stain before CPES. I neglected to mention the stain; skipped over it completely. I meant to also comment that I used to use expensive brushes for varnish but switched to foam ones. I was kind of a hold out, slow to give up brushes. Now I just use foam and when done throw it away. On big varnish jobs they get a little loaded up, heavy and droopy after awhile. When it does I throw it away and start a new one because they are so inexpensive. Ed
1978 22' CC Dory outboard
I have not had trouble with bubbles. I'm guessing if a few occur they migrate to the surface and pop and the surface levels before drying. If you see lots of air bubbles I wonder what is causing the air to enter the application. I tend to use varnish at a fairly low viscosity; either through warming the varnish or diluting with mineral spirits. Ed
1978 22' CC Dory outboard
I'm thinking the foam brush causes the buble trouble. There's no trouble like buble trouble, it's double trouble as I fumble and mumble along. There's a tune that goes with it. Sorry about that. I just couldn't resist.
Actually, I use cheap bristle brushes here in my wood shop for finishing projects and toss them as I go. They don't shead much after you pull around on them for a while before you use them. The best quality brushes shead some. I may try them with the Schooner this fall and just toss them. I'm running out of coffee cans for cleaning the good brushes anyway. And, I'll try the foam brush one more time.
I know, keep my day job.
Al
Actually, I use cheap bristle brushes here in my wood shop for finishing projects and toss them as I go. They don't shead much after you pull around on them for a while before you use them. The best quality brushes shead some. I may try them with the Schooner this fall and just toss them. I'm running out of coffee cans for cleaning the good brushes anyway. And, I'll try the foam brush one more time.
I know, keep my day job.
Al
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bubble trouble
Al,
Some thoughts re bubble trouble.
Using a combination of the foam roller and a foam brush wipes out the bubble trouble - so to speak.
Pettit's Captains varnish goes on with the a four inch roller leaving bubbles but the tipping brush removes the bubbles in one stroke flowing from dry to wet.
Toss the cheap roller and foam brush using new ones the next day. And, zero bubble trouble.
Just a thought. JerryT
Some thoughts re bubble trouble.
Using a combination of the foam roller and a foam brush wipes out the bubble trouble - so to speak.
Pettit's Captains varnish goes on with the a four inch roller leaving bubbles but the tipping brush removes the bubbles in one stroke flowing from dry to wet.
Toss the cheap roller and foam brush using new ones the next day. And, zero bubble trouble.
Just a thought. JerryT
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Personally, I've never tried spraying varnish. My only experience with spraying is with cans like Rust-Oleum sells and I'm not very good at it.
I use Interlux Schooner varnish which recommends applying full body. It could be that if thinned enough to apply with spray it may work ok, but it may loose its luster, or its composition. Don't know. I'm sure someone out there has tried it.
Just peeked in the West Marine catalog and actually, most brands of varnish (including Interlux) include spraying as an application method. Try it.
Or, try using a clear urethane as Mr. Tarbrake has used with sucess. Most of us have a "mind-set" that it's a wood boat, therefore, use traditional varnish.
Al
I use Interlux Schooner varnish which recommends applying full body. It could be that if thinned enough to apply with spray it may work ok, but it may loose its luster, or its composition. Don't know. I'm sure someone out there has tried it.
Just peeked in the West Marine catalog and actually, most brands of varnish (including Interlux) include spraying as an application method. Try it.
Or, try using a clear urethane as Mr. Tarbrake has used with sucess. Most of us have a "mind-set" that it's a wood boat, therefore, use traditional varnish.
Al
re spraying - Spraying vs brush may depend on the intended use (show or utility)of the boat. Looking at a Riva recently which was sprayed and a CC with 12 brushed coats of varnish, the CC varnish looks deeper and marble like.
There is one Tahoe report from a credible source claiming one firm warms varnish overnight at 75 degrees in a crockpot spraying the boat with the warm varnish. They claim the warm varnish sprayed on results in a very high luster finish with substantially reduction in man hours.
There is one Tahoe report from a credible source claiming one firm warms varnish overnight at 75 degrees in a crockpot spraying the boat with the warm varnish. They claim the warm varnish sprayed on results in a very high luster finish with substantially reduction in man hours.
Yesturday was the first day in several weeks the temp. was below 95 deg. here. I guess you would have to cool the stuff down a little. Ha! I've applied varnish in this kind of heat before and it just doesn't do well, even in the shade. I'll be waiting for more pleasent Fall weather. Mine is a cruiser so I have to wait for the environment to come to me. The marina is always busy and has a constant breeze so I think spraying is not an option that I could get by with.
Al
Al
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Well, I've been liberated from the house for a few days so I'm using the time to do some long awaited boat maintenance. Yesterday I stripped and sanded the starboard gunwale, toe rail and rub rail. This morning I got that much stained and this afternoon I put some CPES on.
So I'm hoping to get started with varnishing tomorrow, if the CPES is cured. I'm going to try the foam brush method once again. Found a two-for-one deal at Rockler Woodworking. I'm taking some bristle brushes along though in case I fail once again with the foam ones. I think I'll try getting 3 coats on there before I sand this time and see how that goes. I've always sanded between every coat before. I'll let you know if I have mastered the foam brush deal tomorrow evening (pending the CPES cure time). It will take a while to get 3 coats of Schooner on, so I won't have a judgement on that till next week.
Al
So I'm hoping to get started with varnishing tomorrow, if the CPES is cured. I'm going to try the foam brush method once again. Found a two-for-one deal at Rockler Woodworking. I'm taking some bristle brushes along though in case I fail once again with the foam ones. I think I'll try getting 3 coats on there before I sand this time and see how that goes. I've always sanded between every coat before. I'll let you know if I have mastered the foam brush deal tomorrow evening (pending the CPES cure time). It will take a while to get 3 coats of Schooner on, so I won't have a judgement on that till next week.
Al
Al,
I'm interested to know if you have luck with the combination of 4" foam roller then tipping with a foam brush.
The roller usually bubbles, but the tipping brush - drawn from dry to wet - lays it on without flaws quickly removing the bubbles.
Then the struggle is to not have a "curtain" or "run" on the vertical freeboards. After endless experiments with thinning, not thinning I got it, but I'm not certain I can duplicate the process.
Good luck with the foam tools.
JerryT
I'm interested to know if you have luck with the combination of 4" foam roller then tipping with a foam brush.
The roller usually bubbles, but the tipping brush - drawn from dry to wet - lays it on without flaws quickly removing the bubbles.
Then the struggle is to not have a "curtain" or "run" on the vertical freeboards. After endless experiments with thinning, not thinning I got it, but I'm not certain I can duplicate the process.
Good luck with the foam tools.
JerryT
Jerry,
I got an early start this morning and found the CPES was maybe a little tacky. That end of the boat was in the sun so decided to turn her around in the slip. With no reverse steering (single screw) that can be a challenge for me, especially in a fairly tight harbor and with 2 or 3 boating friends watching the show. With all this tension I quickly thought up "plan B". The audience quickly climed on board and we cruised up-river to a place that serves a good breakfast. When we returned the slip was completely shaded, all that fresh morning air took care of the CPES and my friends were ready for a mid-morning nap. Time to wear the lid off that varnish can.
You can sure cover a lot of wood in a hurry using the 4" roller. I found it's easy to get ahead of yourself, however. It lays down more varnish than I'm used to working with. The tipping worked out ok using the foam brush although at first it's too dry, then it gets loaded up pretty fast and kind of flops around like a wet noodle.
The way this went on the gunwale I can see how it would be difficult on freeboard without some sagging. Mine's painted. I do have a few vertical surfaces that take varnish but not much. I'll probably stay with a brush on those. When it's time I'll try the foam brush (without the roller, I'm thinking).
Al
I got an early start this morning and found the CPES was maybe a little tacky. That end of the boat was in the sun so decided to turn her around in the slip. With no reverse steering (single screw) that can be a challenge for me, especially in a fairly tight harbor and with 2 or 3 boating friends watching the show. With all this tension I quickly thought up "plan B". The audience quickly climed on board and we cruised up-river to a place that serves a good breakfast. When we returned the slip was completely shaded, all that fresh morning air took care of the CPES and my friends were ready for a mid-morning nap. Time to wear the lid off that varnish can.
You can sure cover a lot of wood in a hurry using the 4" roller. I found it's easy to get ahead of yourself, however. It lays down more varnish than I'm used to working with. The tipping worked out ok using the foam brush although at first it's too dry, then it gets loaded up pretty fast and kind of flops around like a wet noodle.
The way this went on the gunwale I can see how it would be difficult on freeboard without some sagging. Mine's painted. I do have a few vertical surfaces that take varnish but not much. I'll probably stay with a brush on those. When it's time I'll try the foam brush (without the roller, I'm thinking).
Al
Al,
Thanks for the update. Someone told me to have a piece or cardboard at hand. Clean the foam roller and foam brush with thinner. Be careful to load both roller and tipping brush with varnish then apply them to the cardboard to get the extra thinner out getting it all to balance. Occasionally, there is contamination in a new roller or new brush. I didn't use the cardboard and it ruined two great coats with the slop oozing out of the roller and brush. Cardboard surface gets new roller and brush working right.
I experimented on the huge flat surfaces doing a 24"+/- area and tipping before it flashes off. The brush just barely moist with varnish letting the roller put the load on and the tipping brush laying it out. On the big surfaces, I rolled across the plank and brushed with the grain - at 90 degrees - to avoid holidays. The second and third coats are tricky trying to avoid a holidays. This project is indoors and the number of lights is critical so i can pick up reflected light to locate more holidays.
We learn quickly who knows varnish and who doesn't. The non varnish guys interupt just as i start. It never fails.
Cheers, JerryT
Thanks for the update. Someone told me to have a piece or cardboard at hand. Clean the foam roller and foam brush with thinner. Be careful to load both roller and tipping brush with varnish then apply them to the cardboard to get the extra thinner out getting it all to balance. Occasionally, there is contamination in a new roller or new brush. I didn't use the cardboard and it ruined two great coats with the slop oozing out of the roller and brush. Cardboard surface gets new roller and brush working right.
I experimented on the huge flat surfaces doing a 24"+/- area and tipping before it flashes off. The brush just barely moist with varnish letting the roller put the load on and the tipping brush laying it out. On the big surfaces, I rolled across the plank and brushed with the grain - at 90 degrees - to avoid holidays. The second and third coats are tricky trying to avoid a holidays. This project is indoors and the number of lights is critical so i can pick up reflected light to locate more holidays.
We learn quickly who knows varnish and who doesn't. The non varnish guys interupt just as i start. It never fails.
Cheers, JerryT
Hi Jerry and all,
Today I laid another coat of varnish on the gunwale and the first coat on another 10 sq. ft. area I prepared yesterday. This time I just floated the boat out into the shade (didn't start it and attract a lot of attention). I think I'm going to sand before I apply more. It's just too hard to see where you are. Even with good daylight and plenty of reflection I probably have some holiday. When your covering a dull sanded surface it's a lot easier to see those and get them covered.
On a cruiser you don't have large open areas to varnish. The gunwale has a cabin wall on one side and the toe rail about 12" over from that, so rolling across grain and tipping with grain isn't too practical. I tried the roller on a vertical surface (trim board below gunwale on aft deck) and quickly broke out a bristle brush to finish that. The roller lays it on way too thick and was sagging before I got back with a brush.
Al
Today I laid another coat of varnish on the gunwale and the first coat on another 10 sq. ft. area I prepared yesterday. This time I just floated the boat out into the shade (didn't start it and attract a lot of attention). I think I'm going to sand before I apply more. It's just too hard to see where you are. Even with good daylight and plenty of reflection I probably have some holiday. When your covering a dull sanded surface it's a lot easier to see those and get them covered.
On a cruiser you don't have large open areas to varnish. The gunwale has a cabin wall on one side and the toe rail about 12" over from that, so rolling across grain and tipping with grain isn't too practical. I tried the roller on a vertical surface (trim board below gunwale on aft deck) and quickly broke out a bristle brush to finish that. The roller lays it on way too thick and was sagging before I got back with a brush.
Al
I experienced a malfunction today while applying CPES over new stain. The stain was applied late yesterday and the CPES went on this morning. The CPES obviously reacted with the stain chemically, almost bleaching it out to natural mahogany color in weird patterns. The area must be stripped again, probably by sanding down to natural wood, if I can. One step forward and two steps back.
I did basically the same procedure Thursday and Friday with no ill effect. The difference was probably the weather, warm and dry earlier and cooler with rain last night and this morning. My theory is that the stain did not cure well overnight in the cool moist air and was not ready for the strong solvents used in the CPES. Be ware!!!
I've got a real mess on my hands now.
Al
P.S. We have a great resource right on this very screen. If I would have looked at a past post (archived) on this very subject I could have saved myself all of this mess. "Finishing - CPES over Stain"
I did basically the same procedure Thursday and Friday with no ill effect. The difference was probably the weather, warm and dry earlier and cooler with rain last night and this morning. My theory is that the stain did not cure well overnight in the cool moist air and was not ready for the strong solvents used in the CPES. Be ware!!!
I've got a real mess on my hands now.
Al
P.S. We have a great resource right on this very screen. If I would have looked at a past post (archived) on this very subject I could have saved myself all of this mess. "Finishing - CPES over Stain"
CPES over Stain
A short update on this is... there's no update. I threw 3 coats of varnish on the mess to moth-ball it till warmer weather returns (likely next summer).
My master plan was to strip, sand, stain, CPES and varnish everything this Fall. The stain isn't going to cure enough for the CPES unless I can find a large heated barn close by (and that's not going to happen). So, it's on to the next project - the cabin top.
Al
My master plan was to strip, sand, stain, CPES and varnish everything this Fall. The stain isn't going to cure enough for the CPES unless I can find a large heated barn close by (and that's not going to happen). So, it's on to the next project - the cabin top.
Al
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