Cylinder Sleeving (for KBL)?

[Jarmo]

Dear boating colleagues. I did not find this topic on the threats, thus decided to open a new one. Please do excuse me in case subject has been covered previously. I bought a 1949 built C-C Riviera #178 with original Hercules KBL 131 hp this summer.
It was imported to Finland. (you can find her on the Boat Directory of the Club.) I had some engine problems during the summer. Some extra exhaust smoke, difficult to keep the revs on idle, low oil pressure (gauge showed below 10) etc.
I Decided to have the engine checked now when the boating season in Finland is over, and what do we find? All cylinders badly rusted inside (lower parts) and one with a puncture through !! Now, alternatives are to find a new block ( I'm still searching...) OR, to have the 6 cylinders sleeved. And here comes my point: Does anyone in this forum have experience in sleeving these older Hercules models? Positive or negative? Points to be taken into account? All advice highly appreciated.
And surely, if anyone has a good condition K block for me tucked in the corner of the boathouse - I'll BUY it!

[charlesquimby]

Sleeving works well when done properly. From the sound of your experience it may be that there is not enough jacket thickness to support boring the damaged cylinders...sounds like there has been a lot of erosion and sluffing away of block internals. I can understand that it might be difficult to find a K block on your end; over here they are not real scarce yet. The auto parts store NAPA used to carry sleeves for the Herc, but that was years back. You may want to contact Van Ness Engineering. Jim Staib is also good source for parts. Best of luck. CQ

[jim g]

I sleeve everyone I build. Sleeve thickness is either 1/16" or 3/16" that I use. I'll have to check my notes at work. There's plenty of thickness there to sleeve even if you have big holes in the walls. The blocks rust from the inside because they never had coolant in them. Dirt and sediment sit up against the cylinder walls in the water chambers and slowly rust away the walls. Sleeves are ordered by length, bore size and thickness. Attached pictures are of a K series block bored out for sleeves. Rot holes opened up at .020 over In 3 of the cylinders. You never know what's happening on the inside.

[jamesm2733]

I have sleeved all of my restorations for past 15 years. My materials, boring techniques and sleeve installation have changed over the years. I now use Melling HP sleeves, and when boring for the sleeve I leave a step at the bottom of the cylinder for the sleeve to set on. Bore every other hole, set and face those, then go back and do the remaining three. This will reduce adjacent cylinder distortion. Use Loctite 680 at the bottom of the sleeve bore and press the sleeve into place. Use std size pistons to leave as much thickness as possible. Bore and finish hone to size.
A good engine machine shop should be able to make your cylinder bores like new.

[jim g]

I have sleeved all of my restorations for past 15 years. My materials, boring techniques and sleeve installation have changed over the years. I now use Melling HP sleeves, and when boring for the sleeve I leave a step at the bottom of the cylinder for the sleeve to set on. Bore every other hole, set and face those, then go back and do the remaining three. This will reduce adjacent cylinder distortion. Use Loctite 680 at the bottom of the sleeve bore and press the sleeve into place. Use std size pistons to leave as much thickness as possible. Bore and finish hone to size.
A good engine machine shop should be able to make your cylinder bores like new.

]

Thats exactly how it should be done. My machine shop does it that way.

[Peter M Jardine]

Jim, is this era of blocks from Hercules pretty stable after sleeving? I understand all the regular issues of age, but I also remember dealing with a straight 8 Pierce Arrow engine from the 30's.....There were cracking issues after sleeving, and no matter how hard the effort, the block just would not hold together. I assume the 50's blocks were a lot better casting quality and material quality as well.

[jim g]

I've done several pre war blocks 1937, two 1938's and a 1941 plus about 13 or 15 post war and a couple of M's. I haven't had any problems with them. The big thing about sleeving is finding a machine shop that knows how to do it correctly and using the correct thickness sleeve so theres not to much metal removed. Then I always have the mains line honed. You wouldn't believe how far off these can be. Had one M block that the center main cap rocked back and forth because it was never machined where it sits on the block. But yet the engine ran from new like that.

But as to the Pierce Arrow or other engines it comes down to how they were casted but also if the machine shop knew what they were doing and when it was done. I know when machine shops first started to really get into sleeve 20 to 25 years ago there were quite a few problems.

As to the quality of the casting's they were probably a little better after the war. But the big thing I have noticed is it the machine of the parts post war machine is alot better then the pre war. But also the machining thats done today is alot better then the machining that was done in the 50's.

[Jarmo]

WOW - What a great response thread from you guys. These are very helpful for me. BUT - can anyway shed light on what my mechanic is commenting: ''Sleeving not recommended since the cylinder head (naturally) is round shaped - but the gasket hole is OVAL. The head will never be tight enough on sleeved cylinders''.
He has done hundreds of sleeving jobs in his career, thus should (also) know what he is talking about.

[jamesm2733]

I have found that a proper fit of the sleeve does not require the head to hold it in place.

[Jarmo]

Right-o. Sleeving thus will be done. Melling HP. What size 1/16 or 3/16''. Whatabout the OUTER Dia?

[Jarmo]

Thanks guys for all the sound advice. I'll go for Melling sleeves. Exact size still to be determined but probably it'll be CSL152
ID 3.4375 OD 3.628 LENGTH 7.500. The pistons will also be changed, back to standard size 3 7/16.
Thus, 'taking a peek'' into the KBL ended up to be a major renovation. Will keep you posted in case there is interest in this forum.
Empirical experience will only be available next June, when the boating season in Finland starts again. Cheers.