Active Active   Unanswered Unanswered

V8 Water Pump

Keeping your powerboat under power is a lot easier with good advice. Post your power systems questions here.

Moderators: Don Ayers, Al Benton, Don Vogt

Peter McBratney
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 3:04 am
Contact:

V8 Water Pump

Post by Peter McBratney » Tue Jun 19, 2007 7:03 am

I am rebuilding a 1961 Capri that had a V8 based on the GM block and having done the engine I am attending to the ancilliaries. On my engine the water pump was driven via an extension from the generator. The pump is a twin vane pump and quite worn.

Does anyone know if I can obtain a new casting and vanes or have the unit rebuilt.

Alternatively should I qit the old pump and fit a new modern belt driven system/

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Tue Jun 19, 2007 1:30 pm

Image

This pump was used on the early 283 and 431 Lincolns too. They are rebuildable, parts available, including the replacable metal cam insert. You might want to stick with what you have, becuase a new one won't fit off the generator in some boats (voice of experience here).

Image

I'm not sure why CC thought a dual impeller pump was necessary, in any case, there are a lot of them out there in service.

There's enough brass in this pump to build two modern pumps today.

Regards, Pau1 P1etcher
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

User avatar
E-J Ohler
Posts: 90
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 9:39 pm
Location: Mattawan, West Michigan
Contact:

CC 185 Water Pump

Post by E-J Ohler » Tue Jun 19, 2007 2:24 pm

Peter,
You can get new gaskets and impellers pretty easy. You should have some of these as spares too.
If you winterize your boat (ie not run it for an extended period of time) you should change these impellers every year as they loose there elasticity (see Paul's picture) and won't move any water.
These are good solid pumps, keep them.
I don't know the suppliers name(somewhere in FL) of the top of my head but if you want it send me a PM and I'll look it up.
Thanks,
E-J
"Dad Gawn Crazy" - 1963 31' Cavalier Futura Custom (Twin 283)

User avatar
evansjw44
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:46 am
Location: Grosse Pointe Farms, MI
Contact:

Rebuild Water Pump

Post by evansjw44 » Tue Jun 19, 2007 3:52 pm

I can't see from the pictures if the housing is scored. If so, you should look for a better core. If it isn't scored, a set of impellors and gaskets will get you going again. If the end cover is scored, a good machine shop can mill it flat again.
There are several sources of impellors and gaskets that crfuise this board.

The double chambered pumps are a bit harder to find than the singles. They were manufactured by Sherwood Brass here in Detroit. Sherowwod was sold to Jabsco and then to ITT.

If you rebuild the pump be sure to replace the inlet hoses. They can collapse under operating and give the symptoms of a bad pump.

User avatar
drrot
Posts: 2052
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:28 pm
Location: Three Lakes, WI
Contact:

Post by drrot » Tue Jun 19, 2007 4:23 pm

Peter,
If your pump is like Pauls they are still available as are the rebuild parts. At $773 for a new one I'd rebuild the old one. What make and part# is it?

NC_Dave
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Lake Wylie, North&South Carolina
Contact:

Do you get parts?

Post by NC_Dave » Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:05 pm

I am about ready to put my 60' CC Sportsman in the water and I want to get replacement impellers for my pump. How successful were you ?

User avatar
evansjw44
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:46 am
Location: Grosse Pointe Farms, MI
Contact:

Dual Chambers

Post by evansjw44 » Sun Jul 08, 2007 8:46 pm

Nobody answered one of your key questions. Why a dual chambered pump? You don't see them at all anymore. The answer is that early CC V8 had the equivalent of two seperate cooling system; one for each side of the block. The two sides didn't joint together until they hit the exhaust Y unless they were dual exhausts.

NC_Dave
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Lake Wylie, North&South Carolina
Contact:

Water Pump for 283

Post by NC_Dave » Wed Jul 11, 2007 8:09 pm

I have the same water pump but I never saw anyone mention the part numbers. Does anyone know the part numbers so I can order the impellers before I tear into my pump. Thanks

User avatar
Mark Christensen
Posts: 639
Joined: Wed Jul 19, 2006 5:57 am
Location: Rockford, IL
Contact:

Post by Mark Christensen » Wed Jul 11, 2007 11:08 pm

Is this a 283? or a 327? I have the impeller number for the 327. It's a sierra part.

User avatar
drrot
Posts: 2052
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:28 pm
Location: Three Lakes, WI
Contact:

Post by drrot » Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:33 am

You need to post the pump part number to get the right impeller. My book shows 9 different Sherwood pumps for the 283.

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:05 pm

Check the number stamped on your pump, and then order the impellers accordingly. The photo shows the back side of the pump photos I previously posted, off a 283 CC application.

Image

This link shows the availability
http://www.marineparts.com/mpf/mpf630.aspx
Here is their telephone number 561-748-0053
I'm sure there are many places that handle these pump impellers.

Good luck with yours,

regards, Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

Wilson Wright
Posts: 559
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:44 pm
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Contact:

327 water pumps

Post by Wilson Wright » Thu Jul 12, 2007 4:21 pm

I got into this one late but after looking at the pictures, I'd say we are looking a two different pumps.

The early pictures look like the intake pump that sucks water out of the lake or river into the cooling system. That pump has a rubber impeller that needs replacing every couple of years.

The latter picture appears to be the circulating pump that moves water around the engine and if it is a Sherwood it has a brass impeller and it is hard for me to understand how a brss impeller can wear out.

Even so, I'd not fear in taking it off and giving it a look see. It is on the forard end of a 327 Q. First loosen the belt and then you'll find the pump held in place by four bolts with 5/8 heads. Just be careful not to damage the O ring or gasket, if that's what it is when you take it apart.

WWW
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Wilson Wright
Executive Director Emeritus
Chris-Craft Antique Boat Club

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Fri Jul 13, 2007 11:21 am

Hi Wilson,

The photos are actually from the same pump. I know exactly why you made your comments, because the drive cog on this pump looks just like the back of the brass impeller pumps normally found on the Hercules motors.

This one, however, is the sort of odd style Chris Craft adapted for their early V8 installation, and it was (strangely) run from a direct hook up to the generator. In other words, the generator was run by a belt, and the pump was hooked to the end of the generator directly.

Image


Here are more photos, all of the same pump.

Image

Image

Image


Here is the spacer plate between the two impellers.

Image

Image

Here is a closeup of the inside with both impellers reomved. It's essentially two complete pumps in one housing. Note there are two replacable cams in there too, and these parts are still available.

Image

This same pump is used on the 283 and 431 Lincolns. Why they chose to run an individual line from the pump to each manifold for preheating, is beyond me. Here is the diagram.

Image

Here are the various models of Sherwood pumps from the owners manual

Image


The photo below (sorry, I don't have one of the pump mounted on the end of the generator right now, guess I'll have to make another trip to the basement :-) )shows the early flywheel forward 283 with this pump, but this motor has been converted to an alternator. The original generator would be installed in-line on the same axis with the dive shaft of the pump, and the pump would then be bolted directly to the end of the generator. An interesting mix of water and electricity being driven from the same belt.

Image

The only advantage I can see here, with the two inlets and two outlets, would be if one impeller happened to go out, first you would lose the preheat water flow into that one exhaust manifold, but the other impeller would still be working (and it would probably back flow into the manifold hooked to the bad impeller). The motor would most likely still overheat, but at least the block would still have a water flow and this back-up capability was apparently once thought of as a safety feature by someone at Sherwood.

Regards, all the best

Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

User avatar
evansjw44
Posts: 1865
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 8:46 am
Location: Grosse Pointe Farms, MI
Contact:

Dual Cooling System

Post by evansjw44 » Fri Jul 13, 2007 4:41 pm

Actually the dual cooling system is the result of putting the transmission on the (would be) front of the engine block like the Hercules. The automotive application of the Chey V8 puts the circulating pump in the (normally in a car) on the front and it connects the two water passages on the cylinder head to the inlet side of the pump. In the early CC installations the trans connected to the "front" and the rear engine mount and trans mount blocked access to the cooling water ports on the heads so they included a duct to bring the head ports out to the trans mount. They ended up disconnected without a way to make up the (normal for a car) water flow path to circulate cooling water. It worked, anyway. Greys (AMC and Buick), Chryslers, Intercepters (Ford) and even Crusaders (Cadillac) did it the other way. They took up more space under the engine to make them "front" forward and flywheel aft (like a car) and they retained the circulating cooling system.

Must have been cheaper. Owens did the same thing as far as I remember.

NC_Dave
Posts: 7
Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:07 am
Location: Lake Wylie, North&South Carolina
Contact:

Thanks for the great picturers of my pump.

Post by NC_Dave » Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:13 pm

As it turned out the M10095 G is what my pump is so your information was very helpful. I will search the local marine parts guys first then resort to the internet. I do have one more question. Must I remove the keyway? It has been there since 1960 and I don't want to damage the shaft banging on it. Thanks for the replys.

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:27 pm

If you're lucky, your pump will come apart just like mine did. I have no idea how long that one has been bolted up.

A little liquid wrench would help soak things down for disassembly, but you should not use any petroleum grease when reassembling the impellers, etc. Just use dish soap or silicone grease.

Good luck, hope your rebuild goes well for you.

Regards,
Paul
Nashville, TN
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

Wilson Wright
Posts: 559
Joined: Tue Oct 25, 2005 9:44 pm
Location: Tallahassee, Florida
Contact:

Impeller lube

Post by Wilson Wright » Sat Jul 14, 2007 4:05 pm

Pail:

The guy at West Marine rold me to lubricate the rubber impeller with Vaseline. Was he right or wrong and if he was wrong what harm did I do ?

WWW
Wilson Wright
Executive Director Emeritus
Chris-Craft Antique Boat Club

User avatar
mattwells
Posts: 136
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 2:33 pm
Location: Sacramento, CA
Contact:

Post by mattwells » Sat Jul 14, 2007 5:45 pm

No reason to remove the keyway. In fact, if it is in there good, leave it. Putting the second impeller in and having the keyway keep popping out is frustrating.

Wood Commander
Posts: 885
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:48 pm
Location: Seattle area
Contact:

Post by Wood Commander » Sun Jul 15, 2007 3:01 pm

I recently had the opportunity to work on a pair of Chris Craft 283F 185hp Flywheel Aft raw water cooled engines that were taken out of a 1960's Constellation cabin cruiser. The Starboard engine, the "F" engine (opposite of automobile rotation) had a Sherwoood engine water pump that had the usual one chamber and one impeller. But the Port "FL" engine (rotation like a car) had it's Sherwood engine water pump configured with two impeller chambers. I believe this to all be original because both of the pumps only mated up to only the left side of the block water pump passages (as looking at the front of the block) and had the tubing spacer holding the upper right part of the pump away from the engine where it bolted on with an extra long timing chain cover bolt (at the top right, still looking at the front of the engine, portion of the timing cover bolt hole circle)in the same manner. Both engines had the correct water elbow bolted on the area on the right side of the block water pump passage where it would normally mate up with the automotive water pump. All of the brackets, bolts, hoses, belts and etc. were all right where they are supposed to be and looked like they could have been interchanged on both engines.

And the Sea Water pumps, brackets and etc. were all present and accounted for in their original form. Everything appeared to be identical except for the extra chamber of the FL engine's pump.

So it appears that on a Chris Craft 283F or 283FL that- the engine water pump is sort of like "1/2" of an automotive style pump, bolted to the block's left hand water passage (as looking at the front of the engine)with the big hose going up to the thermostat housing gooseneck. On the right side of the block the water passage that would normally go to the right side of a car water pump, instaed goes to the bolt- on elbow that sends a hose to the lower hose elbow on the exhaust manifold forward end cap. This equipment is just above the twist- disc fuel filter housing.

I have enclosed a picture of a different engine, a 283FLV, that has the same setup. Unfortunately I didn't get a picture of the two different pumps off the engine.

So my question is- why the two chambered pump on the FL engine? It only mates to the water passage on the one side of the block. Could either engine have had either a one or two chamber pump? Or is the two chambered pump done becuse of the Left Hand rotation of the FL engine? Does anybody know if this is truly all original?
Image

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:21 pm

mattwells wrote:No reason to remove the keyway. In fact, if it is in there good, leave it. Putting the second impeller in and having the keyway keep popping out is frustrating.
Hi Wilson,

The vasaline "could" be what boat mechanics use as a routine, to make it easier to install the pumps, and turn the boat over to the customer, who splashes and drives away. The vasaline would soon wear off with use.

Most impellers are neoprene or nitrile type mix, and these are petroleum sensitive, to a degree. Neoprene seals in engines are kept pliable by the addition of esters in the oil chemistry, for instance.

For this reason, and it may just be my own ho-hum day in paridise, I have stayed away from petroleum products on the rubber impellers. Now that you've asked, I don't recall where I got the information in the first place.

It would be interesting to hear some of the others chime in on this. Anyone else out there have a caution about using petroleum products to grease up a rubber impeller?

Regards, Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

User avatar
Bill Basler
Posts: 1996
Joined: Thu Oct 20, 2005 4:48 pm
Location: Cedar Rapids, IA

Post by Bill Basler » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:26 pm

Paul, you are correct, the petroleum base in Vaseline can degrade rubber. I don't really think it would be any big deal, on a one time use, however.
Bill Basler

User avatar
Paul P
Posts: 622
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:48 pm
Location: Nashville, Tennessee, Cumberland River and Lake system
Contact:

Post by Paul P » Thu Jul 19, 2007 1:29 pm

Hello Wood Commander,

I can't answer your questions specifically, but I will offer a word of caution about any 40-year old motor (or older), especially true about the small block Chevy. These engines have a lot of interchanbgable parts, sitting in boxes new and used in marinas all over the world. Sherwood had more than one pump specified for many of these motors, depending on the year of manufacure. Most all the parts will fit many different motors. A Sherwood brass gear water pump off a Hercules may even have the same dog drive and bolt hole pattern as the one they built for the Chevrolet motor.

Therefore what may LOOK like an original installation may not be original at all, depending upon what the service manager, mechanic, or previous owner did under his tenure of ownership.

Your motors may actually be original, but one may have been on the transition where they switched from the one pump to another. Stranger things have happened!

Since these motors have been around for quite a few years, one must be on the alert for all kinds of replacements that may or may not be appropriate, like automotive fuel pumps, automotive carbs, replaced short blocks painted Chris Craft blue, etc. Just a couple thoughts for the day.

Regards, Paul
1956 17' CC Sportsman, 300-hp
1957 17' CC Sportsman, 95-hp
1966 20' CC fiberglass Sea Skiff, 210-hp+
1973 23' CC Lancer inboard project, 427/375-hp.
1966 38' CC Commander Express, 427/300-hp(2)

So many boats.........so little time.....but what a way to go!!

User avatar
Al Benton
Club Executive Team
Posts: 3549
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2005 3:41 pm
Location: St. Louis, MO

Post by Al Benton » Thu Jul 19, 2007 9:19 pm

On the subject of petroleum products on rubber impellers I asked the Son-in-Law (marine mechanic) what he uses. Vegetable oil was the reply.

Al

danm3878
Posts: 1
Joined: Thu May 12, 2016 3:52 pm
Contact:

Re: V8 Water Pump

Post by danm3878 » Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:21 pm

I was happy to find this post, because I have a 1959 Capri with a 283X Chevrolet engine and my water pump must have failed me when I launched it this year for the first time. The engine started fine, but it started smelling hot even thought the water temp gauge was only at around 150. The rubber exhaust pipes attached to the exhaust manifolds on each side started to melt, so I shut it down. I think I was able to locate the water pump, and it looks like some have described in this link. It appears to be attached to the end of the generator with a rather long extension putting the water pump near the output shaft end of the engine. So my question is, do I remove the pump at the end of the extension closest to the water pump itself? Or do I remove it at the end where the extension is connected to the generator? I’m a very novice shade tree mechanic, and I’m worried that I when I remove it, how the shaft is connected to either end of the extension? With the help of the info in this forum, I am pretty sure that I can probably handle rebuilding the pump, once I locate the parts? But any guidance or advice would be much appreciated?

I forgot to attach a few photos in case it helps for any advice on what I’m getting myself into?
JPEG image 12.jpeg
JPEG image 11.jpeg
Sorry about the photo quantity, there were a couple that really didn’t apply to the issue, but I couldn’t figure out how to delete them. And a couple of them show how the water lines connect to the front of the exhaust manifolds on each side which are individually piped to the rear of the boat. If anyone has an idea where I can get the marine grade exhaust rubber hose rated for this use I would appreciate that info as well. I believe they are 3.5” diameter exhaust hoses.I also noticed that a few of the photo’s are not oriented correctly, like the intake pipe photo and a few others, so I apologize that I didn’t correct them first.
Attachments
JPEG image 10.jpeg
JPEG image 9.jpeg
JPEG image 8.jpeg
JPEG image 7.jpeg
JPEG image 6.jpeg
JPEG image.jpeg
JPEG image 5.jpeg
JPEG image 4.jpeg
JPEG image 3.jpeg
JPEG image 2.jpeg
Last edited by danm3878 on Tue Sep 06, 2022 8:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

User avatar
drrot
Posts: 2052
Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2005 12:28 pm
Location: Three Lakes, WI
Contact:

Re: V8 Water Pump

Post by drrot » Tue Sep 06, 2022 7:50 pm

You need to remove the four 7/16" wrench size bolts. The part number is hidden there.
Jim Staib
www.finewoodboats.com


1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
1968 Century 17' Resorter FG-68-174

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 25 guests