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Although not a Division, this area is for information unique to Chris-Craft Constellations.

Moderators: Don Ayers, Al Benton, Don Vogt

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mattbyrne
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Welcome

Post by mattbyrne » Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:55 pm

Welcome to the Constellation Enthusiast Group

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Doug P
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Re: Welcome

Post by Doug P » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:33 pm

Made Troy happy :D

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mattbyrne
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Re: Welcome

Post by mattbyrne » Fri Apr 18, 2014 2:39 pm

If there are any existing post out there that should be moved here let me know and I can do that. This will make them easier to find in the future.

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Re: Welcome

Post by High Seas » Fri Apr 18, 2014 11:33 pm

First of all I would like to thank the Boat Buzz staff for recognizing that Constellations are a large group of wooden boat owners worldwide. We are planked mahogany, paint and varnish just like every other contributor to this group. This forum will help people understand that our wooden boat disease is just a little bigger, and alot worse to try to cure!
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Doug P
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Re: Welcome

Post by Doug P » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:05 am

mattbyrne wrote:If there are any existing post out there that should be moved here let me know and I can do that. This will make them easier to find in the future.


Connie Refresh

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tkhersom
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Re: Welcome

Post by tkhersom » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:07 pm

Thanks Matt and the BOD! :D

I sent Matt the link to the Thread that Doug P. is referring to.

Troy in ANE
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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whamm511
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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Sat Apr 19, 2014 5:09 pm

I too want to add my commendations for starting this endeavor! We'll all make good use of it I'm sure. And we'll still be haunting all of the usual threads as well! Bon Voyage!
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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Don Ayers
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Re: Welcome

Post by Don Ayers » Sun Apr 20, 2014 10:43 am

I'm glad we could do this.

I want to add in my two cents. My hope is that this new area can be focused on the boat as a whole and not a thousands threads on individual parts.

For example, if you have a general engine discussion I hope that will stay in the main Power train thread rather than get lost in here.

If it is unique to a Connie of any year or length then by all means it belongs in this new group.

All the best and BTW. Send in articles and owner stories to the Brass Bell.

Regards

Don Ayers
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Re: Welcome

Post by drginseng » Fri Jun 27, 2014 1:19 am

I have shipwrights at boat yards-and one that owns a yard- telling me that there is a boat called the Connie that came out before the Constellation.

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whamm511
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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:12 am

Who built it? I've not heard of one before. When Chris Craft named this line of ships Constellation airplanes were very well thought of and of course there was the USS Constellation now sitting in Baltimore Harbor as inspiration as well. I'm sure CC was trying to choose a name that would be readily recognized by the public and inspire immediate confidence. Their success shows in that it became their best selling line of boats of all time, with everything from 25 ft. to 66 ft. in Mahogany and then revived again in Fibreglas.
Last edited by whamm511 on Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 5:48 am

image.jpg
Lockheed L-1049 SuperConstellation in flight.
image.jpg
USS Constellation Afloat in Baltimore Harbor
Here is the USS Constellation afloat in Baltimore Harbor which can be toured by the public.

And here is a photograph of a Constellation (actually a SuperConstellation) in flight in 2004. The Constellation, L-049, was produced from 1943 - 1958 with many variations both military and civilian. Originally equipped with 4 18 cylinder Wright radial engines. It was the workhorse of commercial air travel at the time of Chris Crafts' introduction of the "Connie".

This info & Photos from Wikipedia.
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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Re: Welcome

Post by drginseng » Fri Jun 27, 2014 4:41 pm

The guy was saying that CC made a boat named the "Connie". There was a Master Surveyor there who at first said the same thing. I told him Connie is a nickname for the Constellation. After a minute the surveyor said, "you know he's right".
Of the Connie, there's an Express, Salon and Tri-Cabin.

There's a guy selling a Constellation on CL calling it a Crusader. Only the Constellation was given the Triple C with Arrow. Unless someone put it on there, it's a Connie.

And by the way, why doesn't this board have more action on Constellations? They were a huge impact on the boat market.
Last edited by drginseng on Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tkhersom
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Re: Welcome

Post by tkhersom » Fri Jun 27, 2014 6:05 pm

drginseng wrote:
And by the way, why doesn't this board have more action on Constellations? They were a huge impact on the boat market.
Because the "Constellation Enthusiast Group" just got started about two months ago. :mrgreen:
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Fri Jun 27, 2014 10:07 pm

Drginseng;

Jerry Conrad's book "Chris Craft - The Essential Guide" is an invaluable resource for this kind of information. I looked through it and also the Hull Registry for CCABC and I find that the Crusader model was produced from 1965 - '67 in 28' & 36' lengths. All indications are that these were not part of the Constellation Series. The pictures that I find of the Crusaders do not depict the Chris Craft Corporate logo (Triple C w/arrow) either. So I would agree with you that the listing is probably incorrect. Unless he was referring to the engines. There were/are engines known as Crusaders.

CC used so many different designations over the years that it is rather easy to get them confused. Within the Constellation line there were 5 'official' designations: 1) Constellations, 2) Express, 3) Salon, 4) Sedan & 5) Tri-Cabin. These designations were not used in all years of production. Additionally these same models made appearances in many different years of Constellation production without benefit of the 'official' designation.

Just as an example: My boat, a 1960 36' Constellation, carries no other 'official' designation. However, it clearly left the factory as an Express w/Hardtop. (Some previous owner enclosed the Wheelhouse area effectively turning it into a Sedan style.). The differences between models are little known by the general public and remain one of those tidbits of the hobby. It usually has very little effect on the value of any boat offered for sale.

So, let me extend a welcome to you to the Constellation Enthusiasts Group! Are you an owner? If so please tell us about your boat and your experience. If an Enthusiast tell us about yourself and your interest. We love Constellation/Connie stories.
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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Re: Welcome

Post by drginseng » Sat Jun 28, 2014 12:38 am

Bill,

I wrote Crusader, but I meant Challenger. With that, I still don't know why it has the Triple C.

You stated that someone clearly enclosed your boat. Did you gather this info from the hull card? As far as the five models goes, to my knowledge CC only built 25 CC Express of 32' length in 1965. The only interior difference being the a Express not having drawers below the dinette, settee and v berth. Classic Boat Encyclopedia states over 7,200 Connie's were guile from 1960-1972 in 47 models. I can only assume they're referring to salon configurations?

As far as my boats:

Currently I'm working on a '62 Constellation 37' I just painted some in the salon and am in the process of putting up a breadboard ceiling. I have two engines in the wings I'm rebuilding for the day the current power tires out. I like the '62 since I was born in '61. Unlike cars, this size boat is built in '61 for the following spring delivery. I was born in December, so me in the 'oil girl were being built at the same time.

I just sold a twin 1963 Cavalier 31' and a '52 Double Enclosed Sedan "Bullnose". So, any spilling of your knowledge and insight this way is appreciated.

Best,
Gregory

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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 2:00 am

Gregory,

On my Hull Card it lists that it was sold with the Hardtop (by 1960 many more Hardtops were being sold than the open (express) ones according to Jeffrey Rodengen's book.). As far as total #s of Chris Craft Constellations built I have seen a number close to 8,000. I'm sure they're referring to all configurations not just Salon Models. The Constellations began in 1955.

The Challengers were an on again off again model. First introduced in 1941 as a 40' model then in '51 - '53 as a 42' model. Then it lay dormant until 1964 when it was brought out again as either a 36' or 38' model. They all appear to have an aft stateroom making them a double cabin model. They were their own distinct model and not ever a part of the Constellation line.

As for your Connie, 1962 - 37'. That is only a couple of inches longer than mine (@36'10") which is billed as a 36'. Chris Craft often changed lengths by only a few inches so as to introduce a 'New' model. The year of manufacture is best determined by your Hull Card. If you don't have yours you can get it from "The Mariners Museum". Secretaries of State would vary what year a boat was by when it was titled. It often did not matter if you had 'proof' from the manufacturer of what year it was built. That is why it is best to rely on your Hull Card.

That being said the '61s are very easily distinguished from the '60s & '62s because they had a special gold trim with circle cut outs on the frame members by the helm. Only in '61 did they have that trim.

The other thing to remember about Chris Craft was that they liked to do a rolling model changeover. Meaning old parts would go on some new models rather than waste them. Conversely if an idea for a change occurred in the middle of a run they would try it out and make the change permanent for the next model year run. As an example: in 1960 (a year of a lot of changes for CC) they released pictures of some of the new models sporting a blue stripe at the sheer. But it didn't routinely show up until 1961.

What kind of work do you have to do on your Connie aside from the painting you mentioned?
.
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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tkhersom
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Re: Welcome

Post by tkhersom » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:08 am

Bill:

I listed American Beauty as a Salon because that is what it seems like to me however not even the hull card gives this designation.

Would you mind looking at her and seeing if I have her listed correctly? :?

Thanks

Troy

PS: Just click on the link below and it will take you straight to the registry.
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Sat Jun 28, 2014 6:24 am

Troy,

I would think that American Beauty would be considered an Express Model (as is mine). On ships our size when the bridge area is enclosed it was more often referred to as a Sedan style. Yours, because of the canvas, feels like a Salon model but in reality is actually an 'open' cockpit. You can still fold away all of your canvas and then have an Open 'Express' style. Usually a Salon Model would have came from the factory fully enclosed. Larger models usually are considered to have a Salon regardless of what has happened around the helm.
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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Re: Welcome

Post by drginseng » Sun Jun 29, 2014 5:32 pm

Bill,

My hull card from the museum shows delivery in April of 62. A page was included that showed info on 61-62 models, while the picture had an asterisk stating the boat pictured is a 61 because of gold trim and circles as you mentioned. Does your model have drawers under the dining table, settee and v berth?

I'm curious to see what the side boarding and transom ladders look like. Additionally, my boat was missing the stove in the pull down cubby below galley shelves. One of the last things I need are the two screen vents under the transom exhaust scupper and the flagpole socket.

If you would/could send a few pics of your cockpit enclosure I'd like to see how it was built structurally. I want to add a deck bench in front of the transom with storage for PFDs. You can send to email at [email protected]. I don't like the way the helm seats get in the way of the engine hatches. You have to unscrew them to remove them. I heard of a guy using a race car quick release pin setup. That I'd like to explore.

Here's a picture of a boat "like" mine. My mast is off, but it looks like this.
image.jpg
]

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whamm511
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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Sun Jun 29, 2014 8:55 pm

I didn't get Chris Craft original helm seats with mine. I can see where they would block access to the engine hatches. They were designed to flip sideways up against the wall but you do still have to unscrew the legs. I have seen arrangements where a hinge was installed at the top of the leg so that it too would fold out of the way. I've been leaning towards building a mahogany helm bench but would have to figure out how to make it easily removable.

My enclosure was built by extending the hardtop about 18" and then framing in the resulting space. From the curved beam that comes down the sides panels were built and include a generous side window. The rear of the enclosure is built in 3 panels with the doorway & door in the middle. Scuppers were included in the design so that water cannot be trapped inside it. You'll see most of that in the pictures. I don't have any pictures of the scupper detail.

If my boat ever had benches in the rear of the cockpit they were gone before I got it. I don't think mine ever had any. I have Live Wells that were added later. At one time there were Davits which were also removed. There is also evidence that perhaps a fighting chair was once there. I also do not have any boarding ladders. I prefer the mahogany ladders to the metal ones. Yes, I do have drawers under the dinette and settee. I also have Teak decks. I do not know if my stove is original. It is a propane Garland with an overhead oven which makes me think it is a later addition.
image.jpg
Rear view
image.jpg
Portside Panel
image.jpg
View from inside sorry not the best.
image.jpg
With finish.
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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Re: Welcome

Post by drginseng » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:29 am

Nice job. I don't see why you're calling it an express. You didn't add everything past the windshield, right. According to what I'm reading the five drawers are what distinguishes the difference.

The stove would be a two burner alcohol if original. Someone called it a Princess??.

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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:54 am

An Express means that the helm is located in an open area, not enclosed. You can have a Bimini (canvas) top or a hardtop but it is still not 'enclosed'. And we're not talking about a Flying (or Command as CC calls it) Bridge either. When Constellations were originally brought out all models would fit the 'Express' designation.

You have to remember that differences and similarities differed from model to model, length to length and year to year. So in 1965 in the 32' length the only (interior) difference between the Constellation and the Constellation Express models was the deletion of drawers below the Dinette and the Vee Berth. But that wouldn't necessarily apply to other lengths even in the same year. And in this case, the 'Express' was an actual designation by CC. Most of the time CC did not offer an 'Express' model in the Constellation line because they were already 'Express'es (unless some other model). With CC, for every rule there is at least one exception.
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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tkhersom
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Re: Welcome

Post by tkhersom » Mon Jun 30, 2014 6:13 am

Thanks for the education Bill!

It is nice to learn what these designations actually mean.

My uncle has a '48 (?) 34' Express that has a Dual Helm. One outside not enclosed and one in the cabin. I believe it is still called an Express Cruiser but am not 100% sure. :?

Its a neat boat. Solid but needs lots of finish work. He wants me to buy it, but am overwhelmed with AB at the moment.
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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Re: Welcome

Post by drginseng » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:20 pm

Bill,

What is a sedan? Where I'm confused is on my 52, the hull card called it a double enclosed sedan but it was open from the cockpit back. It originally had two helms. Maybe the double refers to the helms.

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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:36 pm

Gregory,

Probably the 'double' refers to cabins. When a helm is enclosed, as they frequently were throughout CC's history, with a Salon attached that was often referred to as a 'Sedan'. Usually when a second helm is set up (at least in post war years) it was referred to as a 'flying bridge' (later CC called them Command Bridges because the term had become generic to the industry). You say you sold the 52', do you have any pictures?
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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Re: Welcome

Post by drginseng » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:45 pm

I'm not sure I understand the reference to cabins. As in there are two berths? It was a 32' with a vee berth. The inside was in the salon, so I'm not picturing the "attached" salon.

Yes, I have pictures but not on this iPad. I'll send them later.

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whamm511
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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:22 am

Gregory,

We've talked about so many different models & years that I want to be sure I'm answering for the correct boat. Your 1952 CC is 32' long and is referred to as a 'Double Enclosed Sedan', is that correct? If so then yes, the Vee Berth is Cabin #1, the other space is Cabin #2 and serves both as a sleeping area and living area (Salon). That's a lot for just 32'. Is the galley in the same space? Head? I am going to make the assumption that the head & galley are probably located between the Vee Berth & the main cabin, perhaps a step or two lower than the main salon and a step or two higher than the V-Berth. That would be a fairly typical layout on a 32' CC. Of course the main cabin also has the helm in it. But this is not the boat you're actually working on right? You've sold that one.

The one that you're working on is a 1962 37' Constellation, correct? While your Hull Card doesn't actually designate it as an Express model we know that it is in fact an Express style with Hardtop, correct?
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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Re: Welcome

Post by drginseng » Tue Jul 01, 2014 2:55 am

Yes, Bill, the boat I have now is the 62 37'er. So, an enclosed cockpit would make it a sedan? I've yet to see a Connie with an enclosed cockpit. I'd like it enclosed like yours, but that fashion eats a lot of deck space. I've seen a few that somewhat enclosed the entire deck area- and it looked great. My hardtop looks like it came out further than yours did before your 18" addition. My fiberglass side with CC insignia looks longer. I guess where I get lost is the four classes of Constellation- 1). Express 2). Salon 3).Sedan. 4). Tri-cabin. The Tri-Cabin's difference is obvious. But a Salon? Don't all have a salon? In an earlier post you stated "On my Hull Card it lists that it was sold with the Hardtop (by 1960 many more Hardtops were being sold than the open (express) ones according to Jeffrey Rodengen's book.)" it seems here your distinguishing between a hardtop and open (I assume you mean with no top).

On the 52' when you step down from the deck, the head is immediately left and galley likewise to the right. The helm that was removed was forward starboard of the salon. All rooms or areas were on the same level.

Also Bill, the Connie I now have was owned by a guy that passed at 84. In the end he was tinkering around pulling off some chrome here and there. On the transom under the scupper there are three holes. Two outer are exhaust that should have a screen and the middle hole for the flagpole. He has a pole holder that mounts flush and extends up, but shouldn't the flagpole fixture go in the hole making it flush on top?

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Re: Welcome

Post by whamm511 » Tue Jul 01, 2014 12:47 pm

As I understand it a 'Salon' model will have a living room that does not have a Helm Station in it. A 'Sedan' model will have a living room which incorporates a Helm Station into it. Usually Salon models are 40' or larger. CC did not always have every model every year. So in the early '60s there was no Sedan Model. In 1964 they brought out a Sedan model again. In an effort to combine the benefits of both the Sedan style and the openness of the Express style the rear doors of the Sedans usually could be opened up to have more deck space.

There is a very popular aftermarket addition that a lot of the larger Constellations have had done to their boats. They enclose the entire rear deck with a combination of framing for doors to the side companionways and removable, usually canvas, walls & windows. Usually the hardtop is extended to cover all of that space as well. These are often done in conjunction with a Fly Bridge and sometimes an entire 2nd, upper deck.

The Constellation was developed with the idea of having a lot of open deck that incorporated the Helm Station so that it was easy to entertain a lot of guests and keep the Captain in the conversation. Hence the Express design. But large numbers of users want to be able to use their boat in more inclement conditions so they figure out ways to enclose spaces and make it more practical for their personal use.

My boat, for instance, was outfitted for Deep Sea Fishing by one of the early owners. They did a lot of expensive and good woodwork to make it suit their purposes.

As far as your flagpole holder is concerned; I cannot say definitively one way or the other. If you can post a picture we may be able to give you better information. On a lot, mine included, the flagpole was mounted amidship on the Transom rail. There was a holder that the flagpole was set into. I have not seen a lot of flush mounted flagpoles on the Cruisers. That is more prevalent on the Runabouts and Utilities. What I have seen a lot of is remounting the flagpole to the roof of the Hardtop so that it is not in the way of Dinghies, Fishing fixtures etc. Mine was one such relocation.

I do not find a 37' Constellation listed for 1962 except as a Tri-Cabin. It does show one listed for 1963. You may have a 36', which has an actual Overall length of 36'7". (That's what mine is). However my Hull Card lists the length of mine as 36'10", which is what the MI Sec't. of State titles it as. Or you may have a '63. Your hull number would be definitive.
Bill Hammond
1960 36' Connie
Flint/Port Huron, MI
http://www.chris-craft.org/registry/vie ... at_id=1708

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Re: Welcome

Post by drginseng » Sun Aug 03, 2014 11:05 am

I'm looking for a wiring diagram for my '62 Connie.

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