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screws

Framing, planking and fairing. Repair, or reconstruction. If it's hull related, you'll find it here.

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Kade06
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screws

Post by Kade06 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:09 pm

Hey Guys,
I have a '65 cavalier 27' with a half inch bottom. I'm replacing a piece in the bottom what size screw and length should I use?
I'm thinking a #6 or #8 3/4" to 1"
Thanks,
Kristian
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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evansjw44
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Re: screws

Post by evansjw44 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:45 pm

I would expect CC used a #7, yes, they used odd sizes then. Step up to a #8 and it should be at least 1 1/4" or 1 1/2" into the ribs. If you are splicing sheets together, or patching for that matter, I would use machine screws with "T" nuts like how CC fastened Sea Skiffs.
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Re: screws

Post by Kade06 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 6:51 pm

Okay thanks Jim. Anybody used the total boat epoxy? Jamestown doesn't have cpes or at least I can't find it. I was going to sand the bottom back down to wood, seal with total boat or cpes and sand and paint. Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Kristian
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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tuobanur
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Re: screws

Post by tuobanur » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:18 am

Terry
1941 Model 101 (16') Deluxe Runabout "Miss Dot"

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Re: screws

Post by joanroy » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:35 am

If your bottom isn't rotted, I wouldn't use either product. Epoxy coatings seal moisture out, but it will also seal it in. Unless the wood to be treated is completely encapsulated on all sides and surfaces, such as in the cold molding process, moisture becomes trapped and eventually causes rot. Oil paints and varnishes flash when drying creating microscopic holes allowing wood to breath and release moisture. Epoxy seals completely. I'd stick with good old oil based bottom paint and prime with a thinned first coat. That's the way CC did it and it's certainly withstood the test of time. Epoxy is great stuff, but it has it's limitations.

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Re: screws

Post by Kade06 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:49 am

Well what little rot I have I have cut out or am planning to cut out. Most of it came from the vents on the deck about halfway up. They just attached them to the deck flush so over 40 years water just poured down those two points. We have since raised these vents with a mahogany spacer and bedded to prevent this but the damage was done at that point. Other than that the bottom is in good shape. ironically number 1 of the series had the toe rail come out at that point and was raised but not number 62. LOL. Thanks for the info. My main reason was for better adhesion as I've had issues with that in the past but taking down to wood this year so maybe that will fix it. Thanks
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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Re: screws

Post by Jim Bell » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:45 pm

joanroy wrote:If your bottom isn't rotted, I wouldn't use either product. Epoxy coatings seal moisture out, but it will also seal it in. Unless the wood to be treated is completely encapsulated on all sides and surfaces, such as in the cold molding process, moisture becomes trapped and eventually causes rot. Oil paints and varnishes flash when drying creating microscopic holes allowing wood to breath and release moisture. Epoxy seals completely. I'd stick with good old oil based bottom paint and prime with a thinned first coat. That's the way CC did it and it's certainly withstood the test of time. Epoxy is great stuff, but it has it's limitations.
I completely agree with you regarding the application of most epoxies that are petroleum bases products, West system, etc. However, I would suggest you check out Smith's CPES. It is a completely different product containing wood based resins that allow wood to "breath" following it's application, along with other benefits, which is why it is widely used by wood boat restorers. 8) 8)

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Re: screws

Post by Kade06 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 2:52 pm

I've got some experience with it but only in smaller places but not on the bottom. Thx
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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tuobanur
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Re: screws

Post by tuobanur » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:09 pm

CPES is great stuff and does not promote rot. Of it's many uses, one for restoring dry rotted wood is really nice, for example, when restoring my boat I had some areas on the chine that I had to replace but a couple areas were questionable (soft). I soaked those areas with CPES several times and the results were amazing, I could actually drive a screw in to it with great success.
Terry
1941 Model 101 (16') Deluxe Runabout "Miss Dot"

Kade06
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Re: screws

Post by Kade06 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:22 pm

Nice! Thanks for the reply. I'm all for slowing down rot w/o replacement.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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Re: screws

Post by joanroy » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:25 am

Guys,
I'm confident that CPES if a fine product for treating surface rotted wood and prolonging its life. I'm not confident, that when used as a sealer, it won't stop or slow the drying process of wet wood. I read in their own Q&A a while back that one coat will allow it to breath, two coats will somewhat slow , and three coats will seal completely. In my case, my cruiser stays in the water for 6 months and gets very wet. When I haul it's important for my boat to dry out as quickly as possible before rot starts. On a trailered boat, the wet dry cycle is probably not critical because they don't get totally saturated. The longer wood stay moist the better the chance for rot spores to take hold and do their thing. Any product that slows or retards the drying cycle is not good for the way my boat is used and maintained.

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Al Benton
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Re: screws

Post by Al Benton » Fri Feb 13, 2015 12:27 pm

My Connie was planked with solid mahogany outer planks on a plywood inner surface. I used CPES on the almost completely bare bottom planks (only one coat) years ago before applying ablative antifouling bottom paint. It served 2 purposes; one was that it formed a good primer for the bottom paint to adhere to, the other was to protect the wood against further rotting. The results were good in preventing bottom paint from pealing off, as it had before. Also, when the cruiser was pulled for maintenance (chine replacement) and was out of the water for a couple of weeks she did indeed dry completely (actually within a few days).

When applying CPES to marine plywood, its possible that only the outer ply will get treated. The glue may prevent it from soaking beyond the surface, except at joints that may (or may not) be exposed. Still, a single coat of CPES here would be beneficial, I would think. The stuff does work well as an undercoat, and remains breathable if not duplicated.

I used a paint roller with a jury-rigged pan attached to catch the drippings as I rolled it on the bottom. Should have taken photos. My first attempt got more on the ground than on the wood. By trial & error, I came up with a pan that prevented the CPES from being wasted on the gravel lot (too expensive to waste much).
Al
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joanroy
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Re: screws

Post by joanroy » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:10 pm

Thanks Al,
I guess one coat only for sealing is the key. Multiple coats only if reinforcing rot. I'm staying with traditional prep, prime, paint bottom every year. The original CC bottom still solid after 68 years without epoxy. Works for me!

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Re: screws

Post by Kade06 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:54 pm

Thanks for the replies guys. Very useful info. I think I'll go with one coat for better adhesion and leave it at that. One more question I've always wondered about....why does my boat not have cutoffs on the two through hulls? Why would Chris Craft do that? I know the cavaliers were a cheaper boat but even when trying to put one on the trough hull for the engine it was raised too high kinking the hoses. Thanks for the replies.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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Al Benton
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Re: screws

Post by Al Benton » Fri Feb 13, 2015 2:46 pm

Nothing wrong with leaving "well enough" alone. Those old planks have made it this long without epoxy of any sort.

I did have an area under the massive toe rails on the forward deck that was discovered while repairing the deck plywood. For this area I did soak it with multiple coats of CPES after scraping out the rotted stuff and before filling. The CPES soaked completely through the exposed shear shelf and dripped off inside the cabin on the first treatment, even on the areas with no apparent rot. I did the same on the bottom of the toe rail before reinstalling it. I set the toe rail with bedding compound, don't remember the brand but it has held up well. Still looks and feels solid.

Wish I still owned her but she resides just across the river in Alton, IL these days. I'll go visit her again this spring and see that she is being cared for by her new caregivers (owners).
Al
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joanroy
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Re: screws

Post by joanroy » Fri Feb 13, 2015 5:49 pm

Kristian,
If you don't have sea cocks on your thru hull fittings you'll want to be sure your hoses are in excellent condition and double clamped at both ends. If a thru hull fails where it comes thru the hull a sea cock won't help anyways. The shut off is more to protect from hose failure. Best to have a tapered plug on board that can be jammed into the hole if the fitting fails.

Al,
None of us can keep the old cruisers going forever. I'm just getting Joanroy in good shape for the next old wooden boat nut. Hope he's as crazy as me and does the same.

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evansjw44
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Re: screws

Post by evansjw44 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 10:12 am

I don't think sea cocks on through hulls became a requirement until well into the 80s or maybe 90s. I don't recall seeing them on any CC boat from 60s and earlier. The discussion I had with my surveyor when I asked to reach down under the engines and try to operate a make believe sea cock. You can't reach the through hulls easily.
Jim Evans

Kade06
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Re: screws

Post by Kade06 » Sat Feb 14, 2015 2:42 pm

That's interesting and makes sense and yes I have replaced the hoses very recently for that reason. Next up is the rubber piece between the shaft log and the packing gland. Pretty sure its original. I have been concerned with freezing and busting the hose but my Dad owned the boat for 30 years before me and it was never a problem. Just trying to be a mindful boat owner and not one of these just ties her up and walks away. She's to valuable sentimentally to be irresponsible. Thanks for the info. Always helpful.
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

Kade06
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Re: screws

Post by Kade06 » Thu Feb 19, 2015 3:19 pm

One more question. Any pointers for getting up the shaft log and resecuring? Like bedding angent? What to look for? Any advice would be appreciated. Thanks
Chris Craft Cavalier Futura
1965 27 foot "Kristi D"

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tuobanur
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Re: screws

Post by tuobanur » Thu Feb 19, 2015 4:24 pm

I used the 3M 4000 to seal mind, came highly recommended...
Terry
1941 Model 101 (16') Deluxe Runabout "Miss Dot"

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