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Framing, planking and fairing. Repair, or reconstruction. If it's hull related, you'll find it here.

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aliwildatwork
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new pictures

Post by aliwildatwork » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:47 am

SO...

Yesterday I went to the boat with a five in one tool and a shop vac to s crape the bilge clean of the years of funk build up and clean the interior ribs/chine/stringers. The result, ten pounds of things, gunk and dirt.
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The really cool think was that in the boot locker under the bow I found the piece of aluminum trim for the nose1

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The awkward thing was crawling around and climbing into places that no one has seen from the inside in years.

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The boat was clean when we bought it, inside and out it was nice. The only bad thing was the prevalent smell of mildew. In hind sight I think it was an indication of the hidden problems.

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Image.

Much more of the stringer/chine is rotted than we expected. Guys at the yard don't seem freaked out at all. They are loving this. While she's up on blocks, ten people a day stop by and OOOh, and Ahh at her. Old Boat guys are coming out of the woodworks to give little tips on repairs, ie lay a piece of canvas between patch and butt plate withe the 5200 to allow for better flex... and the list goes on.

One thing, The boat wasn't allowed to breathe. The boot looker was covered with a new piece of painted 1/4 ply with no ventilation, the head had a vent that was covered with plastic/ wallpaper, the galley compartment was so tight with 5200/ dirt/ fridge/ microwave/ cleaning supplies it's a wonder she didn't combust. The best part of this is that I am learning so much. I am getting to know this boat intimately. I can see her now, so clearly, I will be a much better boat owner. For a first timer, I am getting a real "schoolin" and I do Love it. Thanks to everyone for their time and advice. I will post more as it goes, we are thinking of hull colors and trying to be patient, the weather is perfect and I miss the dock, the lake and the chill.

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Delta Moon
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Fix for the connie windows

Post by Delta Moon » Sun Oct 03, 2010 11:50 am

Mr Benton,
On my 58 connie I too had that same leaking situation. What I did that has worked well, and looks good, if remove the outside trim, and I found at Lowes Hardware a white angled piece of rubber that is used for sealing the bottom of garage doors, it come in 12 + foot lenghts, and be sure and NOT use the nail it comes with for rust. go get some stainless nails, and a razor blade to trim it out, Then adjust the angle of the rubber to the glass and sil track, use a white silcome bead and tack it down.
Not A Drop come in, and still opens, only a bit snug.

Rubber a Modern marvle

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:52 pm

Thanks for the suggestion, Delta Moon.

I think I am following this, not quite sure though. Is this an "L" shaped piece that one leg goes under the track and the upright leg is on the interior of the track? More or less a barrier that holds the water long enough for it to drain out the weep-hole instead of over-flowing? A photo of this may help me understand it a little better.

I could get used to the appearance if it works to keep that water out. The curtains usually hide the windows anyway.

Al

aliwildatwork
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It's alive....

Post by aliwildatwork » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:18 am

Okay, so is it possible the topside forward deck was covered with vinyl originally? While taking the trim off the side I kept running into staples?
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Also I have concerns about the bronze/brass screws, taking them out, they strip easily, the stainless screws are obviously from where Bill made repairs and didn't use the same screws, they come out just fine.

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Back to the vinyl thing, the wall paper in the bathroom was plastic coat, industrial type, this is was was behind it...

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Post by dpetty » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:44 am

Even though this is my first post I have been a member for some time.

I wanted to jump in and see if I can offer some assistance since I just completed a total rebuild of the same boat. I will post pic's under different post.

I completely re-skinned the entire boat 23 sheets of marine ply so there is not one inch of the boat I'm not familiar with. I want to caution you by just patching the bad areas. There are areas of the boat you cannot see until she is taken apart such as the head and bilge area under galley.

I had to replace most of the battens due to rot and the only safe and complete way is to have the bottom off. Replacing either side of the bottom is not that hard just time consuming. Four sheets 1/2" ply 6 scarf joints and epoxy. Then a bunch of people to man handle the 4'x 32' board. Jacks to get in place and start screwing. I used bedding compound rather than 5200, so 42 years down the road and she needs a new bottom one does not destroy frames etc. getting it apart.

I will be glad to help where I can in your repair or
give me a call. My phone no. is in the member list if you want to discuss.

D.Petty

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Delta Moon
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Window sealer

Post by Delta Moon » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:36 am

It is not a L, but more of a 1/2 of a Y, if you get my meaning. It sit's on top of the exterior top edge of the wood, and rest right on the Glass. creating a water tight piece of glass. The silcone goes on the end where the end of the ribber meets the crome trim piece of the solid glass.

I have turned the Hose on them and they do not leak. Look like they were built like that, and from the inside. you don't notice it, and no pans needed for the drips.

:wink:

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Post by aliwildatwork » Tue Oct 05, 2010 1:39 pm

I had a really great conversation with D.Petty about his boat yesterday. He's got the same one as me, and has just finished a several year renovation of his boat. He has shared some really great tips and I look forward to trying them out. It got me thinking about these Futura's...There only one other than ours on the registry, and so far I have only seen two others on the net, one in the seattle area and one in Germany. So there's for sure 5, alive and kicking. I don't know if that's good or bad but it is interesting. I ordered 3 sheets of Meranti 12mm, one sheet 9mm from a somewhat local boat supplier. 85 bucks for the 9mm, 95 for the 12mm. The mahogany from the frame and rib work is available halfway between me and the boat, off the shelf in 1x6x8 or 12 ft lengths, I'll get that tomorrow. Priced by the linear foot in board lengths. I will use regular marine ply for the redo of the head floor/sole because I will cover it with something like linoleum or nautilex, The mahogany is sold in board feet, not linear feet, better for me for sure, estimated quote 65 bucks for 15 board feet. Everyone else in town quoted 7 or so per linear foot. Next on the list, bedding compound, CPES, Hard wood dowels, lots and lots of sand paper, different grits, and epoxy glue. More tomorrow....

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:21 pm

Delta Moon, I get the idea now but not sure what this looks like on the window exterior. Is the rubber stationary on the track and the window glass slides by it? Sort of like a squeegee, the exterior trim on a car door window?

Ali, sounds like you're getting into the nitty-gritty. The original plywood is going to be a true 1/2" and 3/8" but 12 mm and 9 mm is as close as you can get these days. The 12mm is not quite a 1/32" thinner than 1/2". That can be frustrating if you're building cabinets or furniture but for a boat bottom it's probably not so bad.

Did D.Petty talk to you about using scarf joints in the plywood patches? It's a lot more prep work. If you can get battens behind joints from inside it's probably not worth the extra time. Battens can be screwed in place from outside the boat if they can be secured tightly with some removable wedges and/or stiff legs.

What are the hardwood dowels for? Filling drilled out screw holes by chance? White Oak dowels would be good, Mahogany would be ideal. Avoid Red Oak, very low tolerance to rot. CPES is good stuff, soak it into all the wood, even the plywood edges. Dip the dowels in it too.

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Decks et al

Post by evansjw44 » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:45 pm

The decks were covered with vinyl. That was Chris Craft of the 60s. Standard fare. The vinyl was wrapped over the deck to the hull joint under the rub rails to keep it dry. The toe rail was applied over that. Once the leaks begin and the vinyl deteriorates then any number of things follow. The vinyl wrapped under the cabin attatchment as CC applied vinyl to the decks before they dropped on the cabin sides and top. When you take a 60s CC cruiser apart you'll find all of this. Some folks have decided to just apply epoxy and glass cloth to the decks and few years later find them full of rot. They miss the water trail. Most CC cruisers have had the deck vinyl repaced without removing the toe rails and there will be water penetration under that that just kills the boat.

If you can find original deminsion plywood, 1/2" and 3/8" or what ever pay extra for it. The metric plywood you'll get is junk and making the transition between metric and US dimension leaves a raw edge just itching to collect water.
Jim Evans

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:27 pm

Jim, the big name marine plywood makers are advertising the stuff as 1/2" but in fine print admit it's actually 12mm (3/8" measures 9mm). I know that 1/32" can be a mountain when trying to build square cabinets with tight joints but wasn't aware this couldn't be overcome on a boat bottom. Are there still manufacturers that make true 1/2" marine plywood?

Al

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Ken Miller
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Re: Decks et al

Post by Ken Miller » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:50 pm

evansjw44 wrote:.....That was Chris Craft of the 60s. Standard fare. The vinyl was wrapped over the deck to the hull joint under the rub rails to keep it dry. The toe rail was applied over that. Once the leaks begin and the vinyl deteriorates then any number of things follow.....
I've heard Danenberg say that Chris Craft intended for the life span of runabouts to be six years. Did Chris Craft associate a life span to cruisers in the same manner? Did that life span get any longer toward the latter production years of mahogany hulls?

Ken Miller.
1951 Chris Craft U-22-1705 "Miss Cynthia"

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:25 pm

Danenberg and Chris-Craft were referring to the bottom construction. Whatever the bedding compound they used wasn't expected to hold up for more than about 6 or 8 years. Cruisers were built the same as runabouts prior to the Sea Skiffs and Cavaliers so they were included in that estimate.

Al

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Post by aliwildatwork » Wed Oct 06, 2010 5:41 am

Are staples that attached the vinyl copper? They look like it...and I always thought copper in wood was a huge NO No. I do believe the deck has been cover in glass cloth, I'll have to ask if Bill took the toe rails off. Is toe rail the same as gunwale?

The dowels are indeed for the screw holes, I will look for mahogany or white oak dowels. When the rub rail came off most of the screws stripped and the wood is wet. I am going to try the mix of antifreeze, borax and boric acid along every exposed board and where I suspect rot or mildew before I cover it up with anything, seems like a good, inexpensive way to treat the areas.

I am also looking to replace the instrument panel with original gauges as mine are all repro/ after market if anyone has a source or old parts laying around. My tach is not working, I think it's wired backwards, I can re-wire it for now but the original panel is soooo much sexier. D.Petty sent me some pictures of his boat and wow its awesome.

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evansjw44
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ETC.

Post by evansjw44 » Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:53 am

CC used copper staples to secure vinyl decking. Copper doesn't corrode as easily as steel Nowadays we use monel staples - they don't corrode. Don't use steel staples, even coper plated steel staples.

Many boats that get re-decked get the vinyl removed and glass cloth and resin is used instead of vinyl. Often the vinyl is just cut along the toe rail line instead of pulling the toe rails and rub rails to wrap the deck to do the job right. The result is water gets under the glass and the rot begins.

As for bottom bedding, cruisers had bottom planking and chines sealed with plain old bedding compound like Interlux 214. On plywood bottoms like skiffs and caveliers they sealed the ply sheets and strakes with Thiocol which is like 5200. I don't know what they used on chines of Caveliers. Skiffs don't have chines.


Screw heads are covered with filler like Famowood or with wood bungs. Bungs are cut across the grain where as dowels are cut along the grain. Using dowels for screw coverings invites water penetration as water follows the grain lines. As for the screws, they are Reed&Prince (as called Fearson) not Phillips even though they look a lot like Phillips. A phillips driver will just tear the head out. It takes a while to learn the art of screw removal. It also takes patience. I use an impacty drill driver with a Fearson bit in it or an old fashioned brace with a fearson bit or my big old R&P screwdriver. You have to clear the screw head of any filler compound or debris before you attempt to pull the screw or you’ll just strip the head.
Jim Evans

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Wed Oct 06, 2010 1:03 pm

What Jim says about covering screw heads is true for your mahogany toe rails or any exposed wood that's fastened. Use mahogany bungs to match the wood.

I think Ali is planning to use the dowels to fill stripped out screw holes, not for bungs.

Ali, CPES works well for stabilizing wood where rot is starting. Look at Steve Smith's website for details.

Al

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Post by aliwildatwork » Thu Oct 07, 2010 6:15 am

I am intrigued by a whole new world of screw heads and bits. I don't think Home depot has a clue? Maybe it's just me.

Steve's website is pretty cool, does Interlux make a comparable product? Does CPES come in larger quantities? Seems like the whole boat could use a soaking with it.

Does anyone know if the aluminum is anodized? I'd like to polish the rub rail but I've heard some nightmares about aluminum changing to black.

I bought the mahogany for stringer repair, sold in board feet, luckily I spent less than I thought I would and I will have extra for other things.

Boat is moving inside the garage bay today... easier on a crawler to get around the bottom. Not as accessible for me because they are closed on Mondays (my only day off), but I can live with it...I think...

Thanks to Everyone!

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Thu Oct 07, 2010 7:59 am

Ali,

Jamestown Distributors has CPES on sale this week. It's available in huge quantities but a 2 gallon kit would probably do. Very toxic and highly flammable stuff, be careful. Jamestown also can provide Reed-Prince (Fearson) screw drivers and tips (for power drivers). I don't know how the standard got changed to "Phillips", the Fearson (Reed-Prince) seemed like a better design. Salesmanship I suppose.

Al

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Mariner's Museum didn't know...

Post by aliwildatwork » Sat Oct 09, 2010 6:25 am

Now that I know what Reed and Prince is, I too think it was a better design... Kind of like I believe the Chris Craft designs of our eras are better designs than the boats out today. Things were made deliberately, whereas, lately things are more happenstance....

I called the mariners museum to find out if the aluminum rub rail is anodized or not. This is after I called emailed Chris Craft the same question and they said uh, erh...talk to the Museum. The Museum guys were funny though, they suggested I visit an antique boat club... does anyone know where I could find an antique boat club? TEE HEE.

I got the Meranti plywood yesterday. 2 sheets of 3/8 and 3 sheets of 1/2 inch. The man, another Bill, owns 24 boats... 14 ftrs.. but 14? He must have started the company to supply the habit...hmmmm. Wasn't I saying something about a parts boat earlier?

Is anyone familiar with Hardin Marine? They have a gauge set that is more attractive than what's on Rags now and I'm not having any luck finding a Chris Craft gauge set yet. It's green back lit, chrome with white faces. Off to the boat...

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Guages

Post by evansjw44 » Sat Oct 09, 2010 8:40 am

Dale Kocian can supply you original guages. As I remember his web site is ccguages.com I have delt with Dale a few times and he's helpful and knowledgeable and not overy expensive. I see original guages as would belong on your boat on ebay all the time. Dale has advertised in Brass Bell I think.
Jim Evans

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Sun Oct 10, 2010 12:44 pm

Dale Kocian has been an avid supporter of the Chris-Craft Antique Boat Club for quite a while now. Mark Clawson, Clawson Classic Instruments is another. Give both of them a call.

Ali, the other Bill wouldn't be from Gainesville, GA, Turner by chance, 24 boats, mostly Aristo Craft, but no 2 alike? If so, his wife Gail is the immediate past President of The Antique & Classic Boat Society, Inc.

Al

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Post by 63constellation » Sun Oct 10, 2010 7:29 pm

I just finished cleaning my bilge bow to stern again.One of the previous owners was a fanily with kids that lived on her for a period of time.You cannot believe the toys,Pokeman cards,action figures and money that I have found over time.Even a Tazamanian Devil Pez dispenser in good condition.Most of these items were retrieved from bilge pump screen.These toys have almost sunk the boat three times.Don't forget to clean out ALL of the limber holes on all of the ribs as the crud will also accumulate there preventing water flow to the bilge pump.Some of the holes will be a real treat to access.

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total satifaction...

Post by aliwildatwork » Mon Oct 11, 2010 6:44 pm

Okay... Rub Rails...
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Taking them off was NOT fun, the wood bwhind was wet and most of the screws wouldn't turn so I ripped them out with a gentle pry, rotted wood and all. The yard still has "rags" on the sling so I couldn't get to all of the rails at once. But...If anyone is going to "refresh the rub rails" let me just say that it's all arm service, no orbital, just long smooth strokes.

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First I dug out all the funk, bedding and dirt on the back of the rail, then I started with 80 grit, 150 next, 220 then 320...ocassionally I wiped of with acetone but it was more for clean up than affect. The 80 grit digs well enough to scuff really deep digs and scratches without deeply affecting the surface. The 150 cleans and smooths the rough out. The 220 does the magic, the 320 is near mirror glaze.

Image
Not for the fain of heart, it's time consuming and you breathe a lot of aluminum dust. I haven't finished the bow pieces yet... the curve is frustration X 10, leveling, buffering, no leverage, fear of un bending...etc...etc.. but I am nearly done, un like the bottom of my boat....BTW Bronze screws/stainless rust? Pitting? Aluminum? What pray tell lurks beneath?
I just have to say, so far this is one of the most rewarding projects to date. I can see total transformation. My rails are like new!

Also repainted the toilet/ pump/ seat and lid today,it is $42 new, or $4 can of paint and strangely enough a $5.46 toilet seat from home depot, removed hinge kit and bumpers, put them on mine and bingo..like new, also raritan will replace the old motor with a new one for a small fee...checking in to that...it's so noisy.

:shock: :shock: :wink:
Image

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Post by aliwildatwork » Thu Oct 14, 2010 5:53 am

So here are few pictures of the repair in progress...
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Image
The uploading process is giving me some grief, I will post more pictures later. I am off to the boat yard to talk to the guys.

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Post by aliwildatwork » Fri Oct 15, 2010 5:41 am

Image

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It's coming back together nicely. I am very excited! She'll be brand new when this is all said and done. The only thing I'm not thrilled about is that in the berth where the patches show I will have to shim a new piece of 1/4 in ply over the hull to make it sooth again. Cosmetic only but it's a place where air and moisture can hide and wreak havoc. I'm considering using something like cork for insulation and for the shim part. I don't want to add too much weight.

Also I found the coolest hardwood dowels at my local woodworking shop, I will do those around the rub rail before wood bondo so there is something to attached to. I think the best thing would be to remove the toe rail/ gunwale and redo the deck because it's obvious that the original canvas/vinyl is under there. And water seeps in through the tiny little breaks in the caulking. It is truly amazing how this boat is put together. A true wonder. BTW there is a 33 ft cavalier for sale on Lake Alatoona, the guy has lost his job after only 8 months of owning her and can't afford the slip. He's letting her go for 1500. He started extensive work on her and she's in good shape.

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Post by aliwildatwork » Sun Oct 17, 2010 9:21 pm

i guess i really have to say as a brand spanky not so new boat owner with a world of problems on an old boat to fix, and a whole lot of thinking... I am amazed at the craftsmanship of old wooden boats. Mine is a 68, older than me, but not nearly so old in the scheme of things. I am widely aware of these repairs as they seem to be a part of my own skin, cuts, butt plates, battons, screws, glue, 5200... as though mine own was on the line... I read/watch/view this website for its immeasurable input, via everyone's great assistance, everyone's great wealth of knowledge but i am still amazed...how so little holds her together, keeps her well remembered lines deep in her skin and bones, what makes her thrust through choppy water and mirror like lakes the same...displacement? planing hull? not questions nearly as much as statements to an art form lost on fiberglass, size queens and and a lost ethic, wasted on my generation, my peers and my worries... I can't wait for the next boat, I'm already knee deep in a parts boat conversation, now a 33 ft, on the next nearest lake...and I dream about lapstrake siding, plywood or not...Cavalier division, short lived, my boat still perseveres.. Have you seen the few boards that keep her together? It's no wonder wooden boats are so frightening to so many people, I've had sheds with more reinforcement rot faster. Hull...Art...Plywood...sounds sketchy doesn't it? Next Polyester...oh wait, that's naugahyde, and I think I hear Jimmy Buffet in the backround...

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Post by jfrprops » Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:08 am

If you do boat repair like you write, yours will be a successful project. Screwed and glued was a great though short lived experiment....it was a winner, but glass captured the market....in with glass = out with class....( but I still lust for a 38 Commander!!!)
John in Va.
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Another day...another dollar...

Post by aliwildatwork » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:09 pm

Went to visit the boat today after a few days off, after melt down about the enormous screws sticking out of the repairs all over...I know its Halloween but Frankenboat isn't my thing... Guys pulled out the longer screws and put back shorter ones.. And still are working their way around starboard to port. Repairs starboard are nearly 100% and port revealed a big nasty today... more ribs/stringers and nothing to go back into on the deck where the toe rail stops/under the decking for the rub rail. Mind you the leaking turned to rot has already been repaired once if not twice, but the source was never stopped. (caulk, caulk, caulk in my wicked witch voice) I've posted the picture on another thread but it's still bout the start to the completion, so when the upload isn't looping I'll post it here again. Once again I just want to say that this site, all of your advice and input is and has been wonderful, Thanks.

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Post by aliwildatwork » Wed Oct 20, 2010 8:12 pm

Thinking of new names for boat...

Fill It
Patches
Bill's Bill
Same Ship Different Day
Ply Will
Oh Bill

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Al Benton
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Post by Al Benton » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:49 pm

Ali, I was going to ask about those long screws but I was speechless, I suppose.

Ply Will is kind of a catchy name.

Saw the photo on the other post, looks like a not so fun patch job in the making. It's good that someone didn't put their foot through, not much left to work with. Is that fir?

Al

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Post by aliwildatwork » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:02 am

Al,

I appreciate your speechlessness as I was floored. 1/2 inch plus 1/2 equals 1 inch right! The new screws are much better, but I'm still hesitant... The new wood you see is meranti, the old repairs were made with regular marine plywood and have distinctly different grain patterns. The deck that was glued over the old deck is most likely marine plywood (fir). The rot below where the toe rail ends is in the mahogany, the fir and the hull and was more than likely the source of all the rot on that side. There was so much 5200 in there is was silly. The new meranti was stamped with I think it was Lloyd's or something of that nature to attest to it's quality. It is darker than fir by a good bit, and has no scent when being cut... The solid mahogany we used for the frames and stringers has a slighty more red tone. The guys at the yard have hearts of gold and were shocked that I flipped out, but they admitted it was sloppy and went back in to do it better. The last thing I want to be is someone's disappointed mother.... so I left them alone for the last few days, decided not to micromanage the process. Other previous repairs were done with carraige bolts and lock nuts. In hind sight this is much more attractive and I would recommend it to anyone doing this kind of work. If I weren't so busy opening a second business and running a first I'd have pulled her to a storage place and done it all myself but I know very little and there is a wealth of relief in having someone else who is not only willing but will stand behind their work to do it.
What is the toe rail wood? Bill said teak but it looks like oak? If I'm going in there I may put back the whole rail. Has anyone bent the toe rail from new wood? And has anyone used the interlux 2000 as a primer for the bottom paint?

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