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5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Framing, planking and fairing. Repair, or reconstruction. If it's hull related, you'll find it here.

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JacobErdey
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5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by JacobErdey » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:44 am

Scenario: I'm restoring a 1950 Sportsman 18...in south Louisiana...so I have many concerns about possible temp/humidity issues. I'm doing the angled inner planking then the strakes as originally done. I plan to do a true 5200 bottom, and was wondering if i am supposed to leave a small space between strakes to let the wood move, or just fit them tight and let the 5200 hold everything solid? The boat will live on a trailer, but will occasionally spend a couple days in the water when taken on different trips. Any input is greatly appreciated
Current Project: 1950 Chris Craft Sportsman 18'

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drrot
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by drrot » Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:07 am

Space the planks. 5200 is strong but the wood will still move. Bottom would look like ruffels potato chips. Been there.
Jim Staib
www.finewoodboats.com


1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
1968 Century 17' Resorter FG-68-174

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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by JacobErdey » Mon Feb 26, 2018 12:19 pm

drrot wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:07 am
Space the planks. 5200 is strong but the wood will still move. Bottom would look like ruffels potato chips. Been there.
Thanks. I assumed that would be the case. And what about the transom and side planks? Just leave about 1/16" gap and use mahogany colored 5200 in seams? or no 5200 in seams above waterline?
Current Project: 1950 Chris Craft Sportsman 18'

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mbigpops
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by mbigpops » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:57 pm

Just a thin application of 5200 in between topside and transom planks but no gaps above the waterline.

Mark
1953 CC Rocket Runabout "Rocket Man"

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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by jfrprops » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:03 pm

watch that "mahogany" 5200...IMHO it turn out purple.....not nearly a match for any raw Mahogany.
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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tkhersom
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by tkhersom » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:02 am

Boat Life "Life Calk", mahogany colored, is much more like the real mahogany color. I am not suggesting to use it in place of the 5200 on the bottom, but it will work GREAT for anyplace that will show. It is also more pliable than 5200.

Happy Boating!
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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maritimeclassics
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by maritimeclassics » Tue Feb 27, 2018 9:48 am

Chris Craft never had gaps between there bottom planks on a runabout when new from the factory. It seams silly to me that someone would do that when the planks are not going to move that much and your just going to create more problems down the road. If you bed a planks completely with 5200 the only way it is going to move that much is if the 5200 lets loose of the inner bottom which would be very bad. Done right the whole bottom should move together when constructed like a one piece hull and that is what you have when your finished. When you put gaps in the bottom you have very little surface on the edge for the 5200 to hold to and over time the 5200 is going to let loose of the side and you will get water in between the 5200 and the edge causing more failure. If you want a tight dry bottom keep everything tight. There is one exception and that is where the transom plank meets the bottom. We put a expatiation gap about the width of a nickel (we actually use a few nickels) because over time we found that the transom plank cups very slightly just at the edge. We are not worried about the bottom moving but the lower transom plank has less surface to glue to and the edge grain is exposed at the bottom of the plank so we give it some space. When I say over time its years but it has happened to us. We have a 16' Chris Craft Rocket that we installed a 5200 bottom on about 20 years ago and it has not opened up and still has no leaks.
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Owner of Maritime Classics
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Restoration Projects:
1936 25' Gar Wood Custom
1947 Ventnor Hydroplane
1957 17' Deluxe Runabout
1948 25' Chris Craft Sportsman Twin
1959 19' Sliver Arrow Hull #75
1929 26' Chris Craft Custom Runabout
1937 25' Chris Craft Custom Runabout

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Don Danenberg
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by Don Danenberg » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:21 pm

When I first developed my CPES and 5200 procedures for runabout bottoms (1984), I had just come from a 3-year restoration of a 120 ft Schooner at the Norfolk School of Boatbuilding. I directed 23 students of the school but we were ALL under the direction of 7 Certified Shipwrights. The frames were doublesawn-sistered White Oak, 9" x 18". The planks were 12/4 Burma Teak. Fasteners were 1/2" and 5/8" diameter Bronze rivet and rove.

Very sturdy construction, and ALL bedded in 5200. The shipwrights wanted a slight gap for the 5200, and any seams fully filled, as they were planked. Their reasoning then was that since this was a blue-water cruiser, it might be in the cold waters of Maine one month and the warm Caribbean waters the next. Some expansion and contraction was to be expected.

In 1985 I opened my shop at the Herreshoff Marine Museum complex in Bristol, RI. The Herreshoff yachts were built (100-years before 5200) with "Heavy-Cut Shellac" as the bedding, and that too with some gappage, except for the internal 1/3 of planking thickness in the bottomsides planks that were Oakum caulked.

In my 5200 bottom construction, which I first wrote about in Mar, 1997, Classic Boating magazine, I've found it best to leave 1/16" to 1/8" gap between bottom plank edges, BUT THESE MUST BE COMPLETELY FILLED TO THE SURFACE WITH 5200 AS THE PLANKS ARE LAID.

Winter storage at 10-degrees and Summer water temps well above that DO cause some minute expansion/contraction issues.
If the planking is too tight, the paint coatings will crack there.

Topsides and deck planks are planked tight, forcing out nearly all 5200 at the edges. The topsides and decks are always in sun and wind and hardly move at all with adequate coats of sealer and varnish. After fairing, the 5200 looks almost gray (not purple) but after staining, sealing, and a dozen coats of varnish are not apparent.
Last edited by Don Danenberg on Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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steve bunda
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by steve bunda » Wed Feb 28, 2018 8:20 am

I did my first bottom in 1992 following Don's method with leaving a gap between bottom planks. I use a popsicle stick between planks during fit up . The nice thing with the gap is you can see the 5200 ooze out when you screw down the bottom planks . This assures complete evacuation of air and builds a good laminate that is 7 times stronger than the original bottom. In Wisconsin we have winter days at 35 below 0 and 10 % humidity with summer days 100 degrees with 100% humidity. After over 50 5200 bottoms installed to date with 100 % success I think a gap is fine as long as it is filled with 5200. I have a 20 year old bottom on my 1937 Chris Craft 22 foot triple that still looks like new with the copper paint from the day . Just saying Mike is not wrong, but Don's method is tested and proven to work with excellent results that adds value to any wood boat. WE use ample 5200 5 cases for a 19 ft boat and silicon bronze fasteners with proper bottom priming and painting.
Thanks, steve

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tuobanur
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by tuobanur » Wed Feb 28, 2018 9:20 am

I can also vouch for Don's method, used it on my boat and even though my bottom is only 9 years old, it still looks great to this day.
Terry
1941 Model 101 (16') Deluxe Runabout "Miss Dot"

JacobErdey
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by JacobErdey » Wed Feb 28, 2018 10:06 am

Okay great. Thanks for the input fellas. That puts a lot of my concerns to rest.
Current Project: 1950 Chris Craft Sportsman 18'

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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by joanroy » Wed Feb 28, 2018 6:33 pm

Don D., I know your 5200 bottom method has become standard and has withstood the test of time, but would the same method work on a large cruiser that is let to soak for months at a time or would planks swelling with 5200 between cause push out on the chines. Thanks.

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Don Danenberg
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by Don Danenberg » Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:12 pm

To begin with, Mike is NOT wrong, Chris-Craft runabout-sized boats were built with the 1/2", carvel-planked bottoms TIGHT, with NO caulking.
These runabouts (and utilities) came with 6-month warranties, and lift rings. You were told, in the owners' manual, to take the boat out of the water 'when not in use', that's why they came with lift rings. Actually, in those days before trailers and even highways, you usually had a boathouse to hang them in before you purchased one. It was delivered by truck or train to your local marina, who prepped it and towed it to your boathouse every spring, on your local lake.

Cruisers are somewhat different, however, these didn't get hung, so they were thicker planked and framed. They lived in the water for 3-6 months of the year. Chris Smith, the younger (Mike's Uncle), claimed in his book "Building Chris-Craft" that there was a spacer used when laying the bottom planking on cruisers..., but none of the many photos in that book show this?

It does make sense, though.., the expansion/contraction problem only occurs once per year, thus the thicker planking.

The CPES/5200 "Better Wearing Bottoms" I began developing in the 1980's (Mar-1997, Classic Boating Magazine) was designed for the smaller, 1/2"-planked, runabouts. They simply HAD to last longer than the originals, if such money was to be spent?

However, part of my research for this included Trumpy Yacht Co.'s 60-ft gunboats, built in 1968?
These were double-planked mahogany, bedded in 3M-5200, twin 3,000 HP diesels, and DECK GUNS!

WoodenBoat magazine did two articles on these boats, I simply cannot find these in my computer files tonight?
I can't find them on the WoodenBoat Online Index either, tonight?

I think your Cruiser can use such construction advances, I'm sure I have those Trumpy articles in my basement files somewhere, but it will take until this weekend to find them?

In the meantime, just ignoring the 70-year-old frames and fasteners and caulking the bottom planking seams with 5200 WILL NOT WORK FOR LONG, AND WILL SPREAD THE CHINES.

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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by jfrprops » Thu Mar 01, 2018 10:46 pm

Don D. gave an important and clear explanation in his post just above....but I think the last sentence is the summary....says it well, says it right, says it all.

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by joanroy » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:54 am

Don D., Thanks for your reply and also, THANKS so much for taking the time figuring out a way to redo boat bottoms. I’m sure your the reason so many boats survive today.

As far as my old cruiser goes, I’ve never used 5200 between the seams. I have used Interlux or Pettit Underwater seam compound hear and there just prior to Spring launch and bottom painting. Stays nice and soft and always squeezes out as she tightens up. She’s always been well maintained and a lot of time is spent every year sanding and inspecting the bottom and keeping up with fasteners and planking/frame repairs as needed. I know she’ll need a full bottom replacement eventually and my choice of technique would be traditional double plank, 5200, or West System. Just weighing my future options. Love to see the article on the Trumpy.

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tkhersom
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by tkhersom » Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:54 am

The most popular seam compound here in the Northeast seems to be Davis Slick Seam. It remains pliable and works well.

Their websites claims "Slick Seam is an excellent underwater seam compound for wooden boats. Requires no mixing, stirring or priming. Made of wax, pure mineral products and silicate fibers, Slick Seam adheres well to most solid surfaces whether dry, wet or even oil stained."

Of course there is the "old timers" method of launching your boat and pouring sawdust in the water around your boat so it gets sucked into the seams while it tries to swell. Not exactly my kind of adrenaline rush thanks. :wink:
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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tkhersom
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by tkhersom » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:01 am

Don Danenberg wrote:
Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:12 pm

These runabouts (and utilities) came with 6-month warranties, and lift rings. You were told, in the owners' manual, to take the boat out of the water 'when not in use', that's why they came with lift rings. Actually, in those days before trailers and even highways, you usually had a boathouse to hang them in before you purchased one. It was delivered by truck or train to your local marina, who prepped it and towed it to your boathouse every spring, on your local lake.
This is very interesting !

Our boats stay in the water all summer on moorings. Even though I knew many boats are/were lifted in boathouses I never knew that the factory recommended it.

Thanks for the education Don! :D
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

jfrprops
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by jfrprops » Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:38 am

I can go one better on Troy's mention of the sawdust trick.....I have filled a plastic trash bag with sawdust and from underwater ripped the bag open, fast and near the leak, and rubbed it into the bottom.....works....when the boat is not moving....but boats do move.....and best advice: "don't try this at home".......! John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Don Danenberg
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by Don Danenberg » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:39 am

Now that sounds like the very old Viking procedure for launching a lapstrake boat. Again, from the WoodenBoat magazine, in the letters to editor section.
Apparently they shoved the boat off the beach and quickly shoveled ant's nests all along the waterline. The dirt fell to the bottom while the ants were sucked into the plank laps and mushed together as the wood swelled.
Kind of like the Lac bugs whose secretions make Shellac?

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drrot
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by drrot » Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:51 am

Troy,
Sounds like you read "The Boat Who Wouldn't Float" by Farley Mowatt
Jim Staib
www.finewoodboats.com


1947 Penn Yan 12' Cartopper WXH474611
1950 Chris-Craft 22' Sportsman U-22-1532
1957 Chris-Craft 26' Sea Skiff SK-26-515
1968 Century 17' Resorter FG-68-174

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tkhersom
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by tkhersom » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:44 pm

drrot wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:51 am
Troy,
Sounds like you read "The Boat Who Wouldn't Float" by Farley Mowatt
Haven't read it, but it sounds like I will have to find it.
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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tkhersom
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by tkhersom » Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:46 pm

Don Danenberg wrote:
Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:39 am
Now that sounds like the very old Viking procedure for launching a lapstrake boat. Again, from the WoodenBoat magazine, in the letters to editor section.
Apparently they shoved the boat off the beach and quickly shoveled ant's nests all along the waterline. The dirt fell to the bottom while the ants were sucked into the plank laps and mushed together as the wood swelled.
Kind of like the Lac bugs whose secretions make Shellac?
:lol: Too funny! That's a new one on me. :lol:
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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steve bunda
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by steve bunda » Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:43 pm

Slick seam is made of 78% blended waxes and saturated hydrocarbons
. To save money you can use melted down old toilet wax rings to fill your cracks for a leaky bottom .

jfrprops
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by jfrprops » Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:33 pm

yep, the toilet wax seal deal...been there done that.....

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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tkhersom
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by tkhersom » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:02 am

Poor Jacob probably does not know what to think now.

Thanks Guys you put a smile on my face! :D
Troy in ANE - Former President CCABC

1957 CC 21' Continental "Yorktown" (Mom's boat)
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22625/
1958 CC 38' Connie "American Beauty"
https://www.chris-craft.org/boats/22607/
1985 Formula 242LS "Gottago"
1991 Formula 36PC "Band Aids"

Life Is Too Short To Own An Ugly Boat

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robertpaul
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by robertpaul » Sat Mar 03, 2018 9:42 am

I hope to presume that by "old toilet wax rings" the reference is to inventory that, though stale.... was never used.
1937 35' Double Stateroom Enclosed Cruiser

jfrprops
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by jfrprops » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:19 am

Robertpaul....naw.....not old inventory and never "used" inventory....if you are going to do something as half a--ed as this....at least buy new wax rings!!!!
John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Don Danenberg
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by Don Danenberg » Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:44 pm

Do NOT put any kind of WAX in your plank seams....,
UNLESS you WANT to do it AGAIN?

It also Does weaken frames AND fasteners?
And NO 'real' product will ever 'stick' there, again?

jfrprops
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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by jfrprops » Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:51 pm

Have to explain that I was not serious about using wax in seams of NICE boats. I am one of the founders of the decades old annual James River Batteau Festival here in VA. This is a reenactment type event for which we have researched and duplicated some of the large flat bottom cargo boats that ran the river prior to the canal era. So these are crude but effective. 40 plus feet in length, eight feet or so beam, foot of so freeboard.
Historically these were of sawn lumber and carried cargo, tobacco and etc, DOWN stream from the center of the state to Richmond . The return trip was either poling against the current...or sometimes they just knocked the boats apart at the end of the trip and sold for lumber. POINT IS....we have patched these boats with the likes of: wax, Styrofoam, and sakrete...not to mention sheet metal, limber branches off bushes and other period incorrect repairs!

John in Va.
1980 Fairchild Scout 30
19?? custom Argentine Runabout 16'
1954 Whirlwind deluxe dual ckpt 16'
1921 Old Town Charles River 17' (founding Captain, James River Batteau Festival)

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Re: 5200 Bottom. Space planks??

Post by JacobErdey » Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:07 am

tkhersom wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 6:02 am
Poor Jacob probably does not know what to think now.

Thanks Guys you put a smile on my face! :D
Ya know, I reviewed all the mentioned methods, and after considerable deliberation I decided to consult my local traveling snake oil salesman...and surprisingly enough he recommended that I follow the Don D system :lol: . Pretty popular fella Don is. I did enjoy everyone's input though. You guys always have some good trade secrets in your bag.
Current Project: 1950 Chris Craft Sportsman 18'

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