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New Member - First Boat

Are you in need of information regarding "the way it was?" Or are you are a walking "who's-who" of Chris-Craft fiberglass boats? Share what you don't know—or do know here.

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NoGin
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New Member - First Boat

Post by NoGin » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:07 am

INTRODUCTION:
Hi guys! I just joined the forum because after months and months and countless of online hours, I am close to making my first boat purchase.

FAMILY BOAT:
I am looking for my first boat in the 31'-36' range to be used as a comfortable family cruiser on the north shore of Long Island in the LI Sound and up the coast to destinations such as Cape Cod. I really would like a big V hull that would cut through the water like butter as my wife is prone to sea sickness. I have 2 boys ages 7 and 4 so an open cock pit and comfortable salon is important.

CONSIDERATIONS:
1972 Chris Craft Commander 31'
This boat is a well maintained "project boat." It has 740 and 778 hours on the original never touched engines. Hull is in great shape other than some 4" tears in the glass in the bow only seen from inside the birth. This is pending a survey and I am a "virgin" boat owner so please bear with me. She needs new batteries, starters and alternators. She has been sitting on dry dock for a couple of years so I am sure some new fuel filters and a good tune up are in order.

THINK I FOUND HER

I have been considering boats from Silverton, Carver, Luhrs and Chris Craft in the 31' - 36' range.

HELP:
I would really appreciate some help-advice-suggestions as to how to address this project and where to obtain replacement parts.

Thanks guys. Glad to be on "board!" :D

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NoGin
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Post by NoGin » Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:36 am

Any and all help would be greatly appreciated guys!

:)

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Post by tom king » Fri Mar 06, 2009 12:20 pm

The glass commanders were "overbuilt" in terms of their construction. This was primarily due to the fact that they were built during the early years of glass development and Chris Craft wanted to make sure it was a well built boat.

If you are looking at a Commander, there are many folks on this forum very knowledgeable but I would highly recommend you get in touch with some folks on the Commander forum who can probably help you alot with questions.

http://www.commanderclub.com/

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Post by Bill Basler » Sat Mar 07, 2009 9:30 am

NoGin, for the money, I would look strongly at the 35-38 foot Commanders. In my opinion there is a tremendous difference between a 31-foot boat and a 38-foot boat when in a good sea. In fairness to your wife who is inclined to sea sickness, I would go as large as your budget, storage, and dockage allow. The 38-foot Commanders are tremendous boats. They have a very pronounced flare to the bow, and are built like tanks. There are hundreds of these, probably even thousands, in use to this day. Commander owners are fairly fanatical about their boats...and for good reason. They are a very comfortable boat, with great performance, and classic good looks.

I personally love the looks of the 35-foot Commander Express. If your budget does not allow you to go up in size a bit, the 35-foot Commander express might be a good option for you.

Here are a few photos of member Howard Harkin's 1967 38-foot Commander on the Mississippi River in front of the Rock Island Arsenal.

Image

Image

Image

Paul Pletcher is among the most fanatical Commander guys out there, and a fanatical Chris-Craft guy in general. He is on this forum often, and I am sure he would answer any questions you may have relative to the glass Commanders.
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Post by Wood Commander » Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:54 pm

When it comes to fiberglass Chris Craft cruisers, there is a difference, at least there is to me.

In 1964 when they introduced the 38' Commander, it was a history changing event. Those Commanders were elegantly designed, ran very well and were way overbuilt,making them a very strong boat with very high quality. Even after all of these years if they have had even half way decent care taken of them, they can be in great shape. About their only down side is that they are kind of heavy. Bad for fuel mileage but great in a heavy sea state.

I think the 35' fiberglass Commander came out in 1968 and is also a very nice boat. Out of all of these fiberglass boats it is my favorite too. It's a little lighter but still very substantial.

The 31' Commander is also a very nice boat, but to me, this model seems to start heading down a little different road construction- wise. And even more so with the 27' Commanders.

Now when you get to the later fiberglass cruisers like the Catalinas and some of the later Commander models, things were really changing in some of these models. They were starting to cut back on the construction and making them closer to other competitors boats. It's not unusual to find an example of a fiberglass Chris Craft fro the mid 1970's with cloth print- through showing through from under the gel coat. At least they still had some cloth in them! Some models were different than other models as far as quality and material goes. They were probably still at least as good as most of the competition, it's just that they were no longer the special item that they once were.

Another fiberglass Chris Craft from this era that was also pretty stout was the Sportfisherman that was designed by Hunt, I think. This was not a Commander, although there was a 31' Sportfisherman model built on the 31' Commander hull. Hunt had worked for Bertram previously and they ended up sueing Chris Craft over the Sportfisherman's deep- V hull design and Chris Craft had to stop building the boat. But those are great boats too.

But always remember, the original Chris Craft Commanders were mahogany planked cruisers. Their Genesis was basically started from the 1948 34' Express Cruiser and ran all through the 1950's and very early 1960's.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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NoGin
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Post by NoGin » Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:35 pm

Thanks for all the advice guys! The reason why I like the 31' is because it is my first boat. I really didn't want to go any bigger than that if I could help it. Not really a budget thing, just a comfort thing. My plan is to modernize her and build her according to my specs and get many many years of family enjoyment and memories from her. I am sure I will want to trade up to the 38' or even 40 plus in the future, but for now I like the 31'.

?? - How can I tell what engines she has buy looking at them? Here's a picture. Original engines untouched with 750 hours.
Image

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Post by Wood Commander » Sun Mar 08, 2009 1:53 am

Those are Chevy/Chris Craft small block, flywheel forward "Q"'s with closed cooling. Q's were built from the 307, 327 and 350 Chevy engines. I can't tell from the pictures, but the valve covers and the brass tags on the exhaust manifolds should say 307 or whatever Q and 200 or something HP. The Port engine will be QL whatever for the opposite rotation.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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NoGin
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Post by NoGin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:13 am

You know the guys at the yard couldn't tell me that! Thanks so much. Like I said these engines have never been touched and have 750 hours on them. They obviously are in need of some exterior attention, which I will certainly give them. There are 2 re built carbs and starters. I am going to put in 2 new alternators.

Any recommendations for aftermarket alternators? Other than draining any fuel left in the tank and replacing it with new fuel, anything else I should do prior to attempting to turn them over? She has been sitting as is winterized for 2 years.

Thanks.


:)
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NoGin
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Post by NoGin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 6:27 am

"Chevy/Chris Craft small block, flywheel forward "Q"'s with closed cooling." Are these engines good? Are parts readily available for them?

Thanks.
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Post by Al Benton » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:12 am

The 1972, 31' Commander came with twin CC 327Q engines. The closed cooling was an option. I'm not a gear-head but there are several threads herein that mention 327's. You should be able to find them using the Search tool.

The closed cooling is a good option for offshore use from what I hear. The 327Q's were rated at 235HP.

There's a 1972 Commander Price List in the Archives that may be useful to you as well.

Al

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Post by NoGin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:38 am

That's great news! Thanks!!

:D
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Post by Bill Basler » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:00 am

NoGin, I don't want to be the one to rain on your parade, but I feel compelled to at least offer this advice. As someone who is just getting into boating, and with a spouse who needs a little extra attention because of sea-sickness, I really don't want you to get into the wrong boat.

I pulled your engine photo into Photoshop, so I could see if I could enhance it to the point that the tags were readable. I couldn't. But while taking a good hard look a things, I see two engines that are fairly weathered, that have had a fairly recent coat of paint sprayed on. I see blue overspray on the wires, on the engine tags, etc.

I also see a cooling line with duct tape around it, a carburetor that is off of the starboard side, with rust as far as you can see into the intake. I see a wiring terminal block laying loosely in the bilge...

This kind of stuff is not all that uncommon for boats of this age, especially if they have sat in a yard unattended to for years, but it does look like a do it yourselfer's attempt to spruce things up on a minimal budget. I think that it's fair to say that you *shoud* pull these engines and have them gone through.

As well, I think it could be money well spent to have a good marine surveyor go through this boat. Often, if the mechanicals have been ignored, other parts of the boat have as well.

In looking closely at the photo, I can also see the hull ID number in the upper left. FXA 315027N. This number puts you 55 hulls from the end of the series, so you are correct that this is likely a 72 model.

Hull no. series
FXA-31-001 to FXA-31-100 (1966)
FXA-31-2001 to FXA-31-2145 (1967)
FXA-31-3001 to FXA-31-3120 (1968)
FXA-31-4001 to FXA-31-4095 (1969)
FXA-31-5001 to FXA-31-5082 (1970-72)
No. of hulls built 542
Length 3 1 ' 0"
Beam 11'3"
Draft 28"
Freeboard Forward 55"
Aft 39"
Height 12' 3"
Weight 8175 lbs.
Fuel capacity 100 gals.
Fresh water capacity 25 gals.
Hull material Fiberglass
Bottom color Copper-bronze
Waterline color Black
Hull side color White
Cabin top color White
Deck color White
Upholstery
Exterior: Blue
(1966-67,1970-72),
Tan (1968-69)
Interior:
Teal (1966-67),
Tan (1968-69),
Blue (1970-72)
Engines offered
Chris-Craft 350Q, 327F(2X), 327Q(2X)

Often these boats come with a price tag that matches their condition. They can often be had for next to nothing. But I know of some pretty cherry, well-maintained fresh water Commanders that can be had for under 30K, some even under 25K.

Statistically, those who try boating for the first time, but have a bad experience with their chosen boat, will leave boating and never come back.

We don't want that!
Bill Basler

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Post by NoGin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:21 am

Bill, your information and obvious professional experience is so appreciated! The current owner is a well off individual who lives in my town and bought this boat as a boat to re build. He used it for a season and decided not to rebuild it and bought a new 37 foot instead. He currently owns 3 boats and is apparently pretty knowledgeable in boating. He and I are meeting on the boat today to go through everything.

The starboard carb is off as it was rebuilt and will be going back in soon. The starters are out for rebuild which were recently completed and will be re-installed this week. I plan on replacing all hoses, cleaning and scraping the entire engine(s) and painting properly, putting on all new belts, plugs and wires and going from there.

I am getting the boat for a song at $2k! The hull is in great condition and has been waxed over the stored years. I imagine because of it sitting uncovered for nearly 2 years water has made its way into the engine bay and remained sitting on the blocks causing it to be in its current condition.

The information you provided is wonderful and I love finding the history and details of the boat. I will keep you posted as things progress. I do have a decent budget for mechanicals so as long as the engines run well and don't need a rebuild, I should be fine (I just threw the kiss of death on her didn't I).
:shock:
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Post by NoGin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 10:48 am

What is the go-to book guide to value the boat? It's nothing I am looking to stick to, just a good info point and something to add to my rebuild documentation book.

:lol:
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Post by Wood Commander » Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:06 pm

I agree with Bill about thoroughly checking the engines, and all other systems, out before trying to do any boating.
There is "newer" blue paint all over everything, that is why the engine model call- out decals are no longer on the valve covers or at least painted over. This can possibly mean, "spray can rebuild".

This may sound harsh, but I'd do a compression check on the engines and see where they stand. If the compression check is decent, then I'd pull the engines out of the boat.

This is a lot of work, but there are so many advantages if you can do it.

First of all, on an engine with decent compression, you can do a quick and dirty "refresh".
Your engine hours are not really in the fantastic category time- wise. On a car they wouldn't be so bad, but boat engines are often run in the "constant- duty" mode.
After removal from the boat, I'd first, pull all of the marine hardware off the engine. The intake manifold, exhaust manifolds, and etc., etc.
Now pull the oil pan and check a sample rod bearing and a sample main bearing for condition and wear. Check all of the castings for corrosion, pitting and cracks.

If all is well, Replace the oil pumps, timing chains, (one will be a gear setup, don't worry about that unless there is an obvious problem), all gaskets and hoses while the engines are out and readily accessible. Installing rebuilt heads on sound short blocks might could possibly be a good alternative to a complete rebuild at this point.
Also replace any seals that you can get at, like any transmission O- rings or seals that are now exposed.

Check out your exhaust manifolds, if they leak water back into a cylinder it can kill an engine.

It's always so much easier to work on stuff out on the shop floor rather than down in a boat's bilge!

These are the things that can go South on an old engine and cause some big problems.
You'd be amazed at how much better it is to just re- gasket an engine so that you don't have any more oil leaks!

Hopefully things will be going well and you can clean up and degrease the engine and component exteriors, repaint and reassemble.
This will still cost you some bucks. But if the engines are basically sound it will be much cheaper than rebuilds and should get you more hours of dependable service, assuming your long blocks are still in decent condition. And that's well worth some money!

Now, another big advantage, you can go through your bilge and make things right. Underneath the engines is always a bad place for oily, greasy grunge and dirt which means a nasty bilge. If you ever do get into a situation where you have water in the boat and need to do serious pumping, a messy bilge can cause the loss of a boat if the water can't flow through the hull to the pumps due to debris clogging passages and pump screens.

Another huge advantage, degrease and repaint your engine room.
There are going to be all sorts of wires and cables hanging everywhere. This is the time to clean, identify and organize everything while you have room to actually get in there and work without any engines in your way. You will probably find that you can eliminate a few Add ons that have creeped in over the years after different owners had different ideas about adding this and that.

You will be suprised at how much easier it is to organize your electrical and other system components and set them right by doing it this way. When you look in the engine room it looks like a nightmare of wiring and hoses, etc. When you can do a serious "attack" like this, things can actually fall into place and make sense even if you have to get a little help identifying, repairing and organizing things.

And while the engine room is opened up, inspect, inspect, inspect everything you can see or touch! You are going to be in a better position to check things out in this area of the boat now than any surveyor that comes to look at your boat will ever be.
In a fiberglass boat, this area is probably the foundation of a good restoration if the rest of the hull is in decent shape.

Yet another advantage of doing this is priceless to me. After doing this you will have had your hands on every component in this area. You will have learned what each thing is, what it's supposed to look like when it is installed properly and what it does. After that, you will eventually be able to figure out how it's supposed to work. How valuable might that be during a breakdown out on the water, maybe alone at night?

As Bill said, it's actually very troublesome, expensive and dangerous to have a mess in the major systems area of a boat. Even though what I am suggesting is a lot of hard work, it is the best way if you can swing it.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Post by Wood Commander » Sun Mar 08, 2009 2:42 pm

I forgot to talk in my previous post about parts availability.

The Q engines, like many of the Chris Craft V8 models, are basically just marinized small block Chevy engines. So most of the parts for a Chevy engine are readily available and will fit your engines.
But there are a pretty fair amount Chris Craft/Q specific parts. Some are longblock parts, but many are auxilliary items like the intake and exhaust manifolds and risers, front and rear covers/housings/mounts, thermostats and hoses. Some parts like exhaust manifolds/risers are interchangeable with other Chris Craft engines like 283/327 F's and are supported by the aftermarket. Some of the Q stuff is harder to find but is mostly available.
Bret

1953 35' Commander "Adonis III"

1970 23' lancer project

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Post by NoGin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 5:50 pm

Thanks again for all the great info!

~ Would having both starters out not allow any of the power to be used on the boat?

~ To take the engines out we need to have a crane over to behind the transom to pull them out right? I would love to do this but the boat is against the fence at the way back of the yard. Should I attempt to pull the heads and do what I can in the boat?

- Should I get the starters in and do the hoses, plugs, wires, surface scrape/clean and belts and get the boat powered up first then pop the heads and do some internals?
Last edited by NoGin on Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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My two cents worth

Post by J. William Tarbrake » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:03 pm

Put some fresh batteries and fresh gas in the boat, drop it in the water and get it running. Who knows..it may run great and you just saved yourself a lot of work and money. If it doesn't run so good make the necessary repairs or sell it and move onto something better.
J. William Tarbrake
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"Cats Meow"

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Post by NoGin » Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:12 pm

That's what I was figuring on doing. I bought 2 new deep cycle batteries today and going to be putting the rebuilt starters in tomorrow or Tuesday. Then need a new port side alternator. Then it's on to an oil change new plugs and wires, belts and other misc. items and hopefully she will run nice!

I just want to do as much as possible while she is out of the water b/c I know once she is in it's going to be 2 times harder to get mechanicals done as I will be mooring her until a slip opens up in the next 8-10 ,years (OUCH!!!).

I am so excited about this boat!!!!
:D :D :D
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Post by NoGin » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:21 am

WHAT'S THIS?????


Image
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Post by rdapron » Thu Mar 12, 2009 10:32 am

The above operates your trim tabs. You need to go to
http://www.network54.com/Forum/424840/
You will be amazed at the wealth of archived Commander information.
rob

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Post by NoGin » Thu Mar 12, 2009 12:07 pm

Great thanks. I will spend some time there!
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Post by NoGin » Sat Mar 14, 2009 7:14 am

I'm going to sound like an idiot here but don't I need to have the engines running to do a compression test?

:oops:
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Post by Don Ayers » Sat Mar 14, 2009 8:37 pm

Compression checks are typically done with the following procedure:

1. Run engine up to standard operating temp then shut off

2. Disconnect coil wire from Dist.

3. Shut off fuel source

4. Remove ALL spark plugs

5. Insert compression gauge in cylinder head

6. Open throttle to full, commonly called WTO (wide open throttle)

7. Crank engine with starter at least 3-5 revolutions

8. Record cylinder number and pressure

9. Release pressure from cylinder before unscrewing gauge. (there is a little thing that looks like a stem on a tire, just push it with your finger.

10 Repeat

Hope this helps.
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Post by NoGin » Sun Mar 15, 2009 4:48 pm

Yes thanks Don. I am hoping to get the starters back n tomorrow so we can do a compression test and see where the engines stand.

:D
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Post by NoGin » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:20 pm

Compression test showed a strong compression at 180 lbs all around. Next step is to get the rebuilt carb from the previous owner and install it and fire her up!
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Post by jahearne » Tue Mar 24, 2009 2:19 pm

Right on! That's good to hear.
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Bad News Strikes .....

Post by NoGin » Thu Mar 26, 2009 10:04 pm

I finally got the carb back from the previous owner so my mechanic and I set out to fire her up. Here are the results:

Port Engine:
Ran strong but had a tranny leak and no reverse.

Starboard Engine (one w/out carb)
Wouldn't fire up!

I am really in shock right now especially after the strong compression tests! I am going to do an oil change on the starboard engine tomorrow and put in some light weight oil and hope that helps her fire up. If not ...... well I don't want to go there.
:cry:
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Post by jahearne » Fri Mar 27, 2009 11:45 am

So far so good. If the compression checks out, then the block and heads should be in good shape. I'd suspect fuel delivery or spark/timing, but I'm sure your mechanic will figure that out.

Good luck,

John
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Post by NoGin » Fri Mar 27, 2009 12:11 pm

No - The mechanic says he thinks it's the lower half of the engine! It doesn't make sense to me b/c it had good compression but now with the plugs back in she wouln't turn over. She tries but seems like she turns a little then stops.
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